tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post1236782161301930121..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Code words. . . Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-11014882631188068672019-04-08T07:22:01.519-05:002019-04-08T07:22:01.519-05:00Here's the really (tragically) amusing reality...Here's the really (tragically) amusing reality. The folks who often are most opposed to chanting, the "TLH only" crowd types, or the "we never did this when I was kid" types, grew up completely used to chanting, they just don't realize it. You don't know, what you don't know.<br /><br />THEY were the ones doing all the chanting in the liturgy, while the pastor spoke his parts! What do you think all that singing is int he liturgy that the laity were doing?<br /><br />IT WAS CHANTING!!!<br /><br />Funny, yes. Sad? More so. <br /><br />Like I said, you don't know what you don't know.<br /><br />Qui cantat bis orat, as Augustine said.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-32006497583623474482019-04-08T06:35:26.680-05:002019-04-08T06:35:26.680-05:00So Luther was promoting a practice against his own...So Luther was promoting a practice against his own operating principle when he directed the chanting of the Words of Institution in the Formula Missae???? Headlines!!! Luther contradicts Luther!!!Lutheran Lurkernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-88163965208107691542019-04-07T23:16:17.750-05:002019-04-07T23:16:17.750-05:00I'll bite.
"Here's the issue. You wi...I'll bite.<br /><br />"Here's the issue. You wish to impose Scripture and Tradition on the Lutheran Church. That is not sola Scriptura."<br /><br />What is sola Scriptura? Is that the sum of our doctrine? Is the church of the Augustana reduced to the bumper sticker slogan?<br /><br />No one is imposing "Tradition" on the Lutheran church. The Lutheran church has a tradition as does every other church body. Our forefathers were not minimalists. This is why we retained nearly all ceremony, and claim higher reverence than the Papists. Where we fail to be so reverent, we are sub-Lutheran. Does this require chanting? No, of course not. No one is saying it does.<br /><br />"Tradition does not exist as something holy in and of itself."<br /><br />At face value, true. Let's try this: Is the Liturgy holy?<br /><br />"Lutheran reformers studied church history not just to prove the catholicity of their teachings, but to disprove the idea that the Mass was an inviolate order handed down unchanged by the apostles themselves."<br /><br />They did not study in order to prove or disprove anything, they showed forth the Truth fromfrom the Sacred Scriptures, and supported their assertions with the writings of the Fathers, and their wealth of knowledge of church history. Variations of rites refers to differences in liturgical traditions spanning centuries, i.e. Mozarabic, Gallician, Roman, Coptic/Ethiopian, Byzantine, etc. It did not refer to wholesale changes in style and/or substance of the received Divine Service with every new generation. Maybe we are in agreement on this issue.<br /><br />In any case, why so worried about a single pastor with no practical ability to impact the synod overall, who is merely pointing out the liturgical wealth of our own tradition?<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-8284714099537426102019-04-07T09:56:03.434-05:002019-04-07T09:56:03.434-05:00"those who seek to steal from us not some sma..."those who seek to steal from us not some small liturgical practice like the chanting of the Words of Institution but the big things of Scripture and its clear teaching of the Gospel and Tradition"<br /><br />Here's the issue. You wish to impose Scripture and Tradition on the Lutheran Church. That is not sola Scriptura. Read Luther's preface above. We sinners need baptism, the Word, and the sacrament. The order or liturgy or tradition exists solely to exercise the young and weak in the word of God, so that they may confess the faith and grow the kingdom of God. Tradition does not exist as something holy in and of itself. Lutheran reformers studied church history not just to prove the catholicity of their teachings, but to disprove the idea that the Mass was an inviolate order handed down unchanged by the apostles themselves. Variation in rites is part of Reformation ideology as much as communion in both kinds, the marriage of priests, and justification. You may lampoon your readers' understanding of history, but it is yours (along with the entire "liturgy is not adiaphora" crowd) that is faulty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-91274171804278030192019-04-06T18:49:01.736-05:002019-04-06T18:49:01.736-05:00Okay who said they MUST be chanted? We were chant...Okay who said they MUST be chanted? We were chanting them in reference to Luther's direction (offered in LSB) as a reference to our history. How some folks can turn this into an issue is beyond me. Again, the point of the post was ignorance of Lutheran history. Proven here again.Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6723951470973192672019-04-06T08:07:43.513-05:002019-04-06T08:07:43.513-05:00Ignorance is the fertile field plowed by Heretics!...Ignorance is the fertile field plowed by Heretics!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06451006250044197366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-74252494630410560522019-04-05T20:50:22.722-05:002019-04-05T20:50:22.722-05:00There is no Scriptural mandate or proscription for...There is no Scriptural mandate or proscription for speaking or chanting the words of institution or the Psalms. To insist or demand or imply that a pastor or pewsitter do one (or the other) because it express more reverence or faithfulness is pietistic.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-81822828790117103992019-04-05T17:22:35.061-05:002019-04-05T17:22:35.061-05:00Jesus may not have sung the Verba but it is purely...Jesus may not have sung the Verba but it is purely done out of reverence, elevation of speak, attention to Jesus, that it is chanted. But of course we do know they were singing the Psalm, as they were written to be sung, so Carl and Anon 1121 both insist, demand the pastor/people chant the Psalms every Sunday.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-45280129478189221722019-04-05T13:42:54.571-05:002019-04-05T13:42:54.571-05:00"By the way, the greater danger is not that L..."By the way, the greater danger is not that Lutherans will come off looking like Roman Catholics to those who do not know better but that Lutherans will themselves presume that they are more like the big box evangelicals all around them than they are the people of the Augustana, the Catechism, and the faith they confess."<br /><br /><br />I never understood this. The January 31st, 2019 podcast in the link below features Rick Warren. Why do LCMS pastors want to teach modern American Evangelical theology at the expense of confessional Lutheran theology. Look at what is happening to Evangelicalism, everywhere. These are not a few fringe, "snake handling kooks" but mainstream Evangelicals who have permanently changed Protestant Christianity:<br /><br /><br />http://www.piratechristian.com/fightingforthefaith/ Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6639469124815479232019-04-05T13:35:38.071-05:002019-04-05T13:35:38.071-05:00"The liturgy is not adiaphora so be tinkered ..."The liturgy is not adiaphora so be tinkered with or abandoned because we do not like it or we like other things better but the other side of the confession coin. To lose it is to lose what we believe and not simply a format."<br /><br />"Still, I do not wish hereby to demand that those who already have a good Order or, by God's grace, can make a better, should let it go, and yield to us. Nor is it my meaning that the whole of Germany should have to adopt forthwith our Wittenberg Order. It never was the case that the ministers, convents, and parishes were alike in everything. But it would be a grand thing if, in every several lordship, Divine Service were conducted in one fashion; and the neighbouring little townships and villages joined in the cry with one city. Whether in other lordships they should do the same or something different, should be left free and without penalty. In fine, we institute this Order not for the sake of those who are Christians already. For they have need of none of these things (for which things' sake man does not live: but they live for the sake of us who are not yet Christians, that they may make us Christians); they have their Divine Service in their spirits. But it is necessary to have such an Order for the sake of those who are to become Christians, or are to grow stronger; just as a Christian has need of baptism, the word and the sacrament not as a Christian (for, as such, he has them already), but as a sinner. But, above all, the Order is for the simple and for the young folk who must daily be exercised in the Scripture and God's Word, to the end that they may become conversant with Scripture and expert in its use, ready and skilful in giving an answer for their faith, and able in time to teach others and aid in the advancement of the kingdom of Christ. For the sake of such, we must read, sing, preach, write, and compose; and if it could in any wise help or promote their interests, I would have all the bells pealing, and all the organs playing, and everything making a noise that could. The Popish Divine Services are to be condemned for this reason that they have made of them laws, work, and merit; and so have depressed faith. And they do not direct them towards the young and simple, to practise them thereby in the Scripture and Word of God; but they are themselves stuck fast in them, and hold them as things useful and necessary to salvation : and that is the devil. For in this wise the ancients have neither ordered nor imposed them." -- Guess who?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-81186811122566593512019-04-05T11:21:41.190-05:002019-04-05T11:21:41.190-05:00Chanting of the verba goes back to the Middle Ages...Chanting of the verba goes back to the Middle Ages when<br />the acoustics were terrible in the high ceiling Gothic<br />churches. So the idea of chanting was to project a stronger<br />voice to the congregation which could be heard more clearly.<br /><br />With the 21st century sound systems available for churches,<br />chanting is still adiaphoria at best and a bad idea at worst.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-20855811207900438342019-04-05T07:20:07.163-05:002019-04-05T07:20:07.163-05:00And, as we know, Scripture clearly indicates that ...And, as we know, Scripture clearly indicates that our Savior chanted the words when He instituted the Lord's Supper.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.com