tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post3446766960768469854..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Who is best equipped to change or adapt the liturgy?Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-60024483206084481182011-09-13T23:32:08.071-05:002011-09-13T23:32:08.071-05:00Oh an yeah, Chris, it was a compliment. I think y...Oh an yeah, Chris, it was a compliment. I think you're off base as hell on some things, but you make their case forcibly and well and stand by name on what you say. I respect that.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-68103554301652964152011-09-13T23:06:38.557-05:002011-09-13T23:06:38.557-05:00OK PP. Here's the deal. "I see them (th...OK PP. Here's the deal. "I see them (then-current forms and new ones) as well within the same family and lineage." The thing is, DvH didn't, and when he speaks of "the liturgy" he means a specific thing as distinct from anything else even should it bear a "family resemblance".<br /><br />The translators came later, the issue here is what they translate, not the translations. The framers of the novus ordo did not despise the ordo before per se, in fact, they embraced the stated intent of the Pius V Mass as their own. Which was, to reform the Mass from its present state to something that more fully embraces and reflects the Apostolic and Patristic sources of the Mass. An intent the Pius V Mass did not and could not have realised, due to the more limited sources and scholarship of the time as well as the furious distraction of Reformation controversies. The Paul VI Mass (novus ordo) is then (in this mindset, not mine) exactly the Mass the Pius V Mass (Tridentine Rite) meant to be, and as such is in fact the more truly traditional of the two. <br /><br />DvH didn't buy it, in fact thought that for all the "family resemblance" of the novus ordo the devils in the Screwtape Letters could not have ruined the Mass more than the novus ordo. Which is why he was one of the founders of Una Voce, which sought to preserve the Pius V Mass though being Roman Catholic not to oppose the new Mass coming from a church council.<br /><br />The mentality of the CoWo crowd was not even on his radar screen, and his comments were not upholding liturgy overall against such forces, which is the use the paper mentioned apparently found for it. He in no way maintained a "family resemblance" approach.<br /><br />This sort of mistake happens time and again when Lutherans snip something from its RC context and apply it to their own, and that's why I come down on it -- not because it's "Catholic stuff" and we're Lutherans, but because the Catholic stuff re liturgy addresses a particularly RC problem and when taken from context to address our problems is almost invariably got wrong.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-7949083306370102232011-09-13T15:30:05.982-05:002011-09-13T15:30:05.982-05:00You're surprised? Hell, Godfrey's laughin...You're surprised? Hell, Godfrey's laughing his eternal butt off over it! The characterisation is not kind, just accurate. What I think of their results is entirely beside the present point, and whether those efforts gutted the Mass or renewed it is beside the point too. But I'll tell you this, they loved the liturgy and lived within liturgy no less than the most ardent traditionalist, nothing like the CoWo crowd, and the issue was not whether liturgy or not per se, but how to proceed liturgically, even the damn Bugman, Bugnini, the Hannibal Lector of the Liturgy.<br /><br />Disagree as I might on nearly every point with them, the one thing they weren't was anti-liturgical. I am sure you did not misread the article.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-13461200795537895772011-09-13T14:27:39.583-05:002011-09-13T14:27:39.583-05:00Quote: "liturgy was a passion for them, somet...Quote: "liturgy was a passion for them, something that drew people into the very life of Christ, and sought changes and adaptations not to gut it at all but literally renew it, make it new again, more fully aligned with its ancient sources and Scripture."<br /><br />This kind of stands out from your post and in opposition to your common complaints about novus ordo and it being a hijack of Vatican II and a betrayal of the Mass. You are pretty hard on those "reformers" and the end result. And you are even harder on anything that you perceive to have been Lutherans following their lead. You sounded rather kind in that sentence and it surprised me.<br /><br />The DvH quote was from a footnote from a paper by a Lutheran and I will freely admit I did not read it in context. I am not sure that this means I totally misread him. I think he would agree with my point as I apply his wisdom to our own situation.<br /><br />I am not sure that I would agree that they loved the liturgy -- at least they did not love what was there. In particular the translators were averse to the language of the Latin Mass and seemed to simplify to the point of absurdity (example the collects). I would say that they were in love with the idea of a pristine liturgy from the early church, simpler in form, and sought to head the liturgical reform of Rome in that direction.<br /><br />I am not one who holds to a pristine form that must be reacquired and restored. I can find good in the liturgical renewal that you love to hate as well as in TLH and the common service others love to hate. I see them as well within the same family and lineage. I think that LSB reigned in the direction of liturgical exploration that was moving things toward an ELW style and it certainly slowed the pace of liturgical change -- but in a good way.<br /><br />I will take into account your invitation to post on your blog...<br /><br />Blessings, Pastor Peters+Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-67811933389799404972011-09-13T13:51:57.883-05:002011-09-13T13:51:57.883-05:00Well Pastor, I am not at all offended or disgusted...Well Pastor, I am not at all offended or disgusted. It's frustrated, and for two reasons.<br /><br />One, the case for the "Lutheran" church being a liturgical one is amply made in our Confessions and other documents, Walther for example, indeed our very existence as LCMS arose from confronting the "New Measures" advocated in Walther's day with the same measures in our day. That being the case, why all the snippets from Rome and the East instead?<br /><br />Two, the snippets themselves are indeed from a larger context, and when that context is ignored, what the snippets mean changes. Wrt to DvH for example, he was not at all in an analogous situation with the LCMS "worship wars". Those who "gutted the Mass" were not at all people who didn't like the liturgy or live within it or love it. In fact, quite the opposite, liturgy was a passion for them, something that drew people into the very life of Christ, and sought changes and adaptations not to gut it at all but literally renew it, make it new again, more fully aligned with its ancient sources and Scripture. <br /><br />Not at all a case of same truth different contexts, but it can appear so when the context from which the snippets are snipped is ignored.<br /><br />As to posting in my blog, please do! There's just two rules -- no time limit, no DQ.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-43453715161530510172011-09-13T09:07:55.627-05:002011-09-13T09:07:55.627-05:00I think that was sort of a compliment, Terry. Tha...I think that was sort of a compliment, Terry. Thanks.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-14450724680702772512011-09-13T08:48:55.547-05:002011-09-13T08:48:55.547-05:00Well I will sign my name... Terry, the truth of hi...Well I will sign my name... Terry, the truth of his words, while snipped from a larger context, was used to suggest that those who do not like the liturgy are not the ones who should be tinkering with it. In Missouri's case this means those who think contemporary worship is the cat's meow. In Rome this means those who used Vatican II to gut the mass and reshape Roman Catholic identity. Different contexts but the same truth. Those who live within it and love it are best equipped to adapt it -- not those who view it as something antiquated or a straight jacket to their free flowing style. That is all I said. Terry, you really need to cut a guy some slack every now and then. I think I made it clear that I do not post academic papers for theological review but the meandering thoughts of a Lutheran Pastor who reads a lot of stuff. It seems that every post I put up offends you in some way because your comments sound like you are disgusted with what you read. I do read your blog and do not recall if I have ever posted there but do not think so. I read, I think, I share. Some good thoughts. Some ordinary ones. Some that perhaps needed a little more ruminating before seeing the light of day. But such is the nature of this blog -- random meandering thoughts of a Lutheran Pastor.Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-89544096374978510622011-09-12T22:58:48.261-05:002011-09-12T22:58:48.261-05:00Judas, and here I thought Word and Sacrament were ...Judas, and here I thought Word and Sacrament were means of grace.<br /><br />Why is everyone anonymous here? Chris may be full of crap as a Nativity of Our Lord goose about some things, but at least he signs his bloody name to his words.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-53800303898585816062011-09-12T21:40:19.774-05:002011-09-12T21:40:19.774-05:00Our piety is shaped by Holy Scripture
and not by s...Our piety is shaped by Holy Scripture<br />and not by snippets of the liturgy.<br />We need Holy Scripture and all 66<br />books as our means of grace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-79528190220227314192011-09-12T19:01:20.144-05:002011-09-12T19:01:20.144-05:00That's the point -- the author has been looked...That's the point -- the author has been looked past, and the post says things the author does not.<br /><br />The author was speaking to a situation, and in a context, which is not ours. His points are ripped out of that context and applied where he did not and would not apply them.<br /><br />With the further irony that in the author's lifetime, "liturgy" would be changed by precisely those authoritative persons he describes into something he abhorred, with yet further irony that what he abhorred has become mainstream in liturgical denominations other than his own, including ours, yet it is cited in defence of it!Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-42747839758346735722011-09-12T18:11:23.115-05:002011-09-12T18:11:23.115-05:00Where all the Lutheran liturgical
scholars? Perha...Where all the Lutheran liturgical<br />scholars? Perhaps most of them<br />have gone to that BIG CHANCEL IN THE<br />SKY.<br /><br />What is needed in the 21st century<br />is a new generation of scholars who<br />can speak with clarity to the laity.<br />Liturgical renewal will only take<br />place when the laity are on board.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-27305090299833944282011-09-12T15:31:03.348-05:002011-09-12T15:31:03.348-05:00Even an ass can speak the Word of the Lord and is ...Even an ass can speak the Word of the Lord and is worth paying attention to at some point. I do not see why Terry gets so riled up when a short quote from a non-Lutheran source is used as an occasion for a thoroughly Lutheran commentary on who should or should not be tinkering with Sunday am. Look past the author and listen to what the post says. Gesh!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-18503173559132542242011-09-12T08:36:23.811-05:002011-09-12T08:36:23.811-05:00Once again, a Lutheran blog, but everything is Rom...Once again, a Lutheran blog, but everything is Roman Catholic.<br /><br />So, for you Lutherans out there, a little context. Von Hildebrand (1889 - 1977) grew up in a non religious family, said he was given the gift of faith in Christ at five, and was an adult convert to Catholicism. At U Munich he came under the influence of the phenomenologists Husserl and particularly Max Scheler. The latter was born to a Lutheran father and Orthodox Jewish mother, converted to Catholicism as a teen but later left it. A young Father Karol Wojtyla, later Pope John Paul II, wrote his doctoral dissertation on basing Christian ethics on Scheler's philosophy. A young Father Jospeh Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XVI, was an assistant pastor at von Hildebrand's parish in Munich (St Georg) and they were longtime friends. He was outspoken against the Nazis, who sentenced him to death, and he fled Germany then Austria then France, ending up at Fordham U, a US Jesuit institution.<br /><br />He is something of an enigma hardly recognised outside Catholicism and not very often within it either. His phenomenology was quite in tune with Vatican II, at which both Wojtyla and Ratzinger participated, but he ended up quite critical of the results, particularly the novus ordo.<br /><br />So if this thoroughly Roman Catholic figure, a major figure in C20 RC intrsmural developments, has something to offer Lutherans, it would be exactly this: we Lutherans, generally and LCMS particularly, have revised and adapted the novus ordo for our use, but von Hildebrand famously remarked that had the devils of The Swcrewtape Letters been given the job of ruining the liturgy the could not have done it better than the novus ordo.Terry Maherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17122266461403246084noreply@blogger.com