tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post4798319914490931537..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: My Frustration...Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-91112608948941475682010-04-29T08:11:18.515-05:002010-04-29T08:11:18.515-05:00I do my classes in 8 hour blocks (8 am - 3 pm on S...I do my classes in 8 hour blocks (8 am - 3 pm on Saturdays with child care and meals provided)... I find the people are attentive, dig deep, ask pertinent questions, speak to me for a couple of hours after class about specific issues raised in class, and connect well the topics (several specific areas: What is the Bible, where did it come from, and what does it say; church history and denominations, how did we go from 12 apostles to 240+ Christian denominations in the US; Lutheran story, Luther, Confessions, Catechism & Lutheran identity and denominations, fellowship; Worship and why we worship the way we do; Piety and practice - individually and congregationally... I find nearly all people want meat and not polite banter. They are here to learn... and some who were confirmed as youths find out things about Lutheranism they never learned before... surprising and shocking (such as the reason for infant baptism)...Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-19534542624216435812010-04-28T20:26:40.480-05:002010-04-28T20:26:40.480-05:00Well, if one includes a first introduction/fellow...Well, if one includes a first introduction/fellowship session and overview, 5-min openings and closings of sessions, 5-min reviews of previous sessions, a 5-min. mid-session break, part of a session devoted to explaining why the synod acts like it does, a session devoted to introduction/recruitment for congregational organizations and staff, a session devoted to review, a pre-confirmation rehearsal/potluck session, and the inevitable short session because the pastor had a meeting conflict, the class-time of a 20-hour course can hover around 10-12 hours.<br /><br />And remember - with kids one only has to get them to sit still long enough to pour the information in without spilling too much. With adults, you also have spent time loosening the plug to let the old oil drain out first.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-29520768634054255452010-04-28T17:52:32.300-05:002010-04-28T17:52:32.300-05:00I don't think "20 hours" counts as &...I don't think "20 hours" counts as "shake and bake" -- the 2 hour and a hand shake classes are what are being referred to, I guess.Rev. Eric J Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17747919365522145094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-20670613600159748752010-04-28T15:41:43.431-05:002010-04-28T15:41:43.431-05:00I am curious about the complaints about the length...I am curious about the complaints about the length of membership instruction... given that most youth go to catechism for about 50 weeks, an hour a week, and are certified for life because of what they learned at age 12-14 or so, is it so much different if an intense introduction to the Christian faith is given to adults in 20 hours or less? I am not so sure this is as much a problem as is the estimation by nearly all that if you go through some level of instruction once, you are certified Lutheran for life without any other instruction or learning...Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-48689672131546327022010-04-28T15:03:21.958-05:002010-04-28T15:03:21.958-05:00"I believe people are just unaware of basic C..."<i>I believe people are just unaware of basic Christian beliefs.</i>"<br /><br />Given the <i>shake 'n bake</i> duration of some adult membership instruction classes, this is not surprising.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-63756288920958345262010-04-28T14:33:13.354-05:002010-04-28T14:33:13.354-05:00I went to a LCMS congregation in up-state New York...I went to a LCMS congregation in up-state New York a few years back and they had an Elder lead the congregation in a portion of the Catechism prior to worship. I believe people are just unaware of basic Christian beliefs. It's not so difficult but the world keeps pulling us to believe the church is but another club - another "thing" to do on their list. I have worked with the Catechumenate for a long time and when people spend a year or more preparing for baptism or Affirmation of Baptism, they have a whole different way of viewing the "opportunity" of Sunday worship. This also rubs off on the sponsors who have been members but have not review for some time. <br /><br />Elsa Quanbeck, AiMElsa Quanbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13837596130692585521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-27359950239641142010-04-28T14:32:42.941-05:002010-04-28T14:32:42.941-05:00I went to a LCMS congregation in up-state New York...I went to a LCMS congregation in up-state New York a few years back and they had an Elder lead the congregation in a portion of the Catechism prior to worship. I believe people are just unaware of basic Christian beliefs. It's not so difficult but the world keeps pulling us to believe the church is but another club - another "thing" to do on their list. I have worked with the Catechumenate for a long time and when people spend a year or more preparing for baptism or Affirmation of Baptism, they have a whole different way of viewing the "opportunity" of Sunday worship. This also rubs off on the sponsors who have been members but have not review for some time. <br /><br />Elsa Quanbeck, AiMElsa Quanbeckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13837596130692585521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-86844652385173694842010-04-28T13:25:33.242-05:002010-04-28T13:25:33.242-05:00Here we walk a tight rope. We definitely want peop...Here we walk a tight rope. We definitely want people to see that they must be in Church on Sundays, but it needs to come from within themselves. They cannot be compelled to come. If we push too hard, they simply turn away. It is a situation where the Gospel has not really penetrated the hearts of people that leads to this problem. If we put them in a position to turn away, there is less chance that they will hear the Gospel.<br /><br />This suggests, I think, that they need the discipline of being excommunicated very privately, not in a public manner such that they are embarrassed to be seen in Church. Rather they need to be told that they ought not to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord until their faith has been restored as evidenced by some objective measure including very regular attendance and perhaps something more.Dr.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360786634583725263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-77237264758095401202010-04-28T09:30:57.694-05:002010-04-28T09:30:57.694-05:00Canon 80 of the Quinisext council (692) says this:...Canon 80 of the Quinisext council (692) says this:<br /><br /><i>In case any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone else on the list of the Clergy, or any layman, without any graver necessity or any particular difficulty compelling him to absent himself from his own church for a very long time, fails to attend church on Sundays for three consecutive weeks, while living in the city, if he be a Cleric, let him be deposed from office; but <b>if he be a layman, let him be removed from Communion</b>.</i><br /><br />So according to the ecumenical canons, you would be within your rights to excommunicate those who willfully absent themselves from worship for an extended period of time. The 18th-century canonist St Nicodemus, commenting on this canon says "For one of two things must be true: either such a person is not a believer, or though a believer he scorns the common offering of hymns and prayers to God." I dare say St Nicodemus is right.<br /><br />I suppose such an approach is impractical and would provoke a rebellion in the Voters' Assembly, but it would get the message across that the means of grace are for those who actually believe the Gospel and show some basic evidence of that belief in their behaviour (e.g. by going to Church on Sundays).<br /><br />I hasten to add (what should go without saying) that such excommunication is not meant to exclude anyone permanently, but to bring people to repentance so that they may be restored to communion.Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.com