tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post8241514237259831585..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: The Church does not become visible via institutions but via proclamation.Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-8026342268868629502015-11-08T12:52:32.173-06:002015-11-08T12:52:32.173-06:00Methinks the definition of the words quibble and k...Methinks the definition of the words quibble and kibitz are being confused.<br /><br />I'm only 7 years a Lutheran, but I thought paradox was one of our favorite words?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15060779600417891751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-72004431292173344542015-11-08T08:05:00.925-06:002015-11-08T08:05:00.925-06:00Carl Vehese and David Gray,
Thanks to the both of...Carl Vehese and David Gray,<br /><br />Thanks to the both of you for continuing to make my day. I'm still laughing.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07737698278079495810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-4128144525856745172015-11-07T15:04:14.404-06:002015-11-07T15:04:14.404-06:00Anonymous posts an eisegetic misinterpretation of ...Anonymous posts an eisegetic misinterpretation of the <a href="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+1%3A22-23&version=ESV" rel="nofollow">Ephesians verses</a>. <br /><br />The Lutheran understanding of the Church is explained:<br /><br />"All who affirm that the Church is either wholly (papists) or partly (modern Lutheran theologians) visible destroy the Scriptural concept of the Church and change it from a communion of believers to an 'outward polity of the good and wicked' ( <i>externa politia bonorum et malorum; aeussere Anstalt; Heilsanstalt</i>), in which the believers only play a more or less important role.<br /><br />"Occasionally Lutheran theologians to-day speak of two aspects of the Church, a visible aspect : the Word and the Sacraments, and an invisible one: the true members of the Church. But it is logically incorrect to describe the marks of the Church (<i>notae ecclesia</i>) as an essential part of the Church. It is true, the Gospel and the Sacraments are true <i>marks</i> of the Church; for the Church is never found where these are not in use. Moreover, the Gospel and the Sacraments are also the <i>means</i> by which the Church is established and preserved; for without the means of grace there can be no believers, Is. 55, 10ff.; Rom. 10, 17; Matt. 28, 19. 20; Mark 16, 15. 16. But to call the means of grace a part of the Church or the Church itself is an absurdity."<br /><br />Excerpted from J.T. Mueller, <i>Christian Dogmatics</i>, 1934, p. 547.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-75921796798978608872015-11-07T14:41:58.509-06:002015-11-07T14:41:58.509-06:00Jesus is visible in His body and his body is the C...Jesus is visible in His body and his body is the Church. Ephesians 1:22-23. Yet, Jesus remains hidden from our earthly sight. This is a paradox that Christ and His Body is both visible and hidden from human sight, yet fully present and discernible through the marks of the Body, the church. Amazing, yet true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-358208783437418392015-11-07T13:35:48.709-06:002015-11-07T13:35:48.709-06:00That includes the sin of attributing words to a pe...That includes the sin of attributing words to a person that he did not state. Repent!Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-91189928315278597482015-11-07T13:24:35.105-06:002015-11-07T13:24:35.105-06:00I try to every day, but only for sin.I try to every day, but only for sin.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-43815859586401066742015-11-07T12:56:44.650-06:002015-11-07T12:56:44.650-06:00Repent.Repent.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-27681866390269103542015-11-07T12:32:02.696-06:002015-11-07T12:32:02.696-06:00Thanks for reinforcing my point.Thanks for reinforcing my point.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-89647750746207132192015-11-07T12:24:48.191-06:002015-11-07T12:24:48.191-06:00"This is quibbling at best."
No. It i...<i>"This is quibbling at best."</i> <br /><br />No. It is not quibbling in the least! It is the confession of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and the official position of the Missouri Synod (which, with little to worry about ecclesiastical supervision, some of its members seem to publicly ridicule).<br /><br /><i>"By your own statement the church is both invisible and visible (i.e. the Church may be perceived by the true marks of the Church)"</i><br /><br />No. I previously stated, "The Church is not visible, but invisible, although the presence of the Church may be perceived by the true marks of the Church." The Church in the proper sense is not visible, The perceived presence does not make the Church visible. Your statement is a lie and a transgression of the Eighth Commandment. It is a sin to attribute words to a person that he did not state. Repent! <br /><br />In his paper, "<a href="http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/MuellerSignificanceDoctrineChurchMinistry.pdf" rel="nofollow">The Significance of the Doctrine of the Church and the Ministry</a>" (<i>Concordia Theological Monthly</i>, 11:1,1940, p. 19-36), John Theodore Mueller quotes C.F.W. Walther: <br /><br /><i>"The Church in its proper sense consists of all believers in Christ, so that in this strict sense of the term no unregenerated person belongs to it, and therefore it is invisible to us in this life, since no man can discern who is a true believer or not. Nevertheless, the Church, though invisible to man, may be perceived by us in its actual presence by its true marks, the pure preaching of God's Word and the administration of the holy Sacraments according to Christ's institution. In an improper sense the term "church" is applied in Scripture also to the visible sum total of all who profess allegiance to the Word of God and use the holy Sacraments. In the Church, in this sense, there are both good and evil persons, both true believers and hypocrites, though the membership of the latter is external only."</i> <br /><br />Mixing these two separate senses of the term "church," like the similar sophism of mixing "[Roman] Catholic" and "catholic," is a recipe for doctrinal deceit.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-85106913698015898532015-11-07T09:41:29.935-06:002015-11-07T09:41:29.935-06:00This is quibbling at best. By your own statement ...This is quibbling at best. By your own statement the church is both invisible and visible (i.e. the Church may be perceived by the true marks of the Church). One of the true marks of the Church is the right preaching of the Word. The right preaching of the Word involves the "proclamation" of the Gospel. Consequently the Church, using your own concepts, is made visible (able to be perceived) by proclamation. David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-87295445482699212942015-11-07T09:12:49.065-06:002015-11-07T09:12:49.065-06:00The Church is not visible, but invisible, although...The Church is not visible, but invisible, although the presence of the Church may be perceived by the true marks of the Church. This has been repeatedly pointed out in the Lutheran Confessions, the writings of Martin Luther and other Lutheran theologians, as noted in previous <i>Pastoral Meanderings</i> posts of <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-visible-and-invisible.html?showComment=1307720789465#c292597218613092105" rel="nofollow">June 10, 2011 at 10:46 AM</a>, <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-visible-and-invisible.html?showComment=1307822286115#c1370398159021785935" rel="nofollow">June 11, 2011 at 2:58 PM</a>, <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2011/06/church-visible-and-invisible.html?showComment=1307823037019#c4527934551368263124" rel="nofollow">June 11, 2011 at 3:10 PM</a>, <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2014/08/dynamic-equivalence-or-formal.html?showComment=1409167477730#c2845938921009603607" rel="nofollow">August 27, 2014 at 2:24 PM</a>, <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2014/08/dynamic-equivalence-or-formal.html?showComment=1409172966170#c1584673029194602811" rel="nofollow">August 27, 2014 at 3:56 PM</a>, <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2014/08/dynamic-equivalence-or-formal.html?showComment=1409257685302#c6007637654955388715" rel="nofollow">August 28, 2014 at 3:28 PM</a>, and in other statements, such as C.F.W. Walther's <i>Church and Ministry</i> Thesis III, on the Church, The Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod, and the <i>Christian Cyclopedia</i>'s definition of <a href="http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=c&word=CHURCH" rel="nofollow">Church</a>. Even President Harrison <a href="http://mercyjourney.blogspot.com/2010/08/those-who-want-to-anticipate-perfection.html?q=invisible" rel="nofollow">quotes</a> Hermann Sasse: <br /><br /><i>The glory of the true church “is hidden under the cross” [Ap.VII/VIII.18], until with the glory of Christ on the Day of Judgment will become manifest the glory of the Church as his spiritual body. With the one shepherd the one flock will become visible. Those who want to anticipate the perfection – make the invisible visible – are chiliasts. May God gracefully protect us and our congregations from such enthusiasm and keep us by his Word.</i><br /><br />The statement—"The Church does not become visible via institutions but via proclamation"—is simple false doctrine that opposes the confessional Lutheran position. And ALPB-style Lufauxrans, Romanists, Stephanites, Loeheists, <i>Schwärmerei</i>, and XXXA apostates continue to 'circle the wagons' around the false doctrine of the Church being visible.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.com