tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post9096061272205010606..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Lutheran reverence. . . Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-39812398933744855652019-06-05T19:18:33.070-05:002019-06-05T19:18:33.070-05:00JWSKUD for your edification:
CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE
...JWSKUD for your edification:<br /><br />CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE<br />“If Christ Jesus, our Lord and God, is himself the high priest of God the Father; and if he offered himself as a sacrifice to the Father; and if he commanded that this be done in commemoration of himself, then certainly the priest, who imitates that which Christ did, truly functions in place of Christ” (Letters 63:14 [A.D. 253]).<br /><br /><br />CYRIL OF JERUSALEM<br />“Then, having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth his Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before him, that he may make the bread the Body of Christ and the wine the Blood of Christ, for whatsoever the Holy Spirit has touched is surely sanctified and changed. Then, upon the completion of the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless worship, over that propitiatory victim we call upon God for the common peace of the churches, for the welfare of the world, for kings, for soldiers and allies, for the sick, for the afflicted; and in summary, we all pray and offer this sacrifice for all who are in need” (Catechetical Lectures 23:7–8 [A.D. 350]).<br /><br />JOHN CHRYSOSTOM<br />“When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?” (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).<br /><br />“Reverence, therefore, reverence this table, of which we are all communicants! Christ, slain for us, the sacrificial victim who is placed thereon!” (Homilies on Romans 8:8 [A.D. 391]).<br /><br />“‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthy and awesomely does he [Paul] say it. For what he is saying is this: What is in the cup is that which flowed from his side, and we partake of it. He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise him in song, wondering and astonished at his indescribable gift, blessing him because of his having poured out this very gift so that we might not remain in error; and not only for his having poured it out, but also for his sharing it with all of us. ‘If therefore you desire blood,’ he [the Lord] says, ‘do not redden the platform of idols with the slaughter of dumb beasts, but my altar of sacrifice with my blood.’ What is more awesome than this? What, pray tell, more tenderly loving?” (Homilies on First Corinthians 24:1(3) [A.D. 392]).<br /><br />“In ancient times, because men were very imperfect, God did not scorn to receive the blood which they were offering . . . to draw them away from those idols; and this very thing again was because of his indescribable, tender affection. But now he has transferred the priestly action to what is most awesome and magnificent. He has changed the sacrifice itself, and instead of the butchering of dumb beasts, he commands the offering up of himself” (ibid., 24:2).<br /><br />“What then? Do we not offer daily? Yes, we offer, but making remembrance of his death; and this remembrance is one and not many. How is it one and not many? Because this sacrifice is offered once, like that in the Holy of Holies. This sacrifice is a type of that, and this remembrance a type of that. We offer always the same, not one sheep now and another tomorrow, but the same thing always. Thus there is one sacrifice. By this reasoning, since the sacrifice is offered everywhere, are there, then, a multiplicity of Christs? By no means! Christ is one everywhere. He is complete here, complete there, one body. And just as he is one body and not many though offered everywhere, so too is there one sacrifice” (Homilies on Hebrews 17:3(6) [A.D. 403]).<br />Daniel G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00042322449680137387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-26922624313444851582019-06-05T14:03:53.492-05:002019-06-05T14:03:53.492-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Daniel G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/00042322449680137387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-2293988945465580222019-06-05T13:31:38.158-05:002019-06-05T13:31:38.158-05:00Or Fr Z gave over to the dark side...Or Fr Z gave over to the dark side...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-64411637215058052982019-06-05T11:49:13.651-05:002019-06-05T11:49:13.651-05:00Btw, Father Z. is a former Lutheran. He saw the l...Btw, Father Z. is a former Lutheran. He saw the light.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-26020114957122197522019-06-05T11:40:15.352-05:002019-06-05T11:40:15.352-05:00Jwskud....
Wrong both theologically and historica...Jwskud....<br /><br />Wrong both theologically and historically. It's no use trying to convince the willfully ignorant as that tantamount to throwing "pearls to swine." <br /><br />Feel free to attack...err....visit Catholic blogs. You would certainly not be the first to do so. We have been enduring yours and fundamentalist vitriol for centuries now so have at it. <br /><br />Go to Father Z's site. Try if you dare... you may come away Catholic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-913952826916877962019-06-05T10:24:39.128-05:002019-06-05T10:24:39.128-05:00I always find it so interesting when Roman Catholi...I always find it so interesting when Roman Catholics come to LCMS blogs to tell us (attack us?) that we have it all wrong. If we have it all wrong, please pray for us. I can say with 2000% certainty you will never convince me to swim the Tiber.<br /><br />Maybe I should find a Roman Catholic blog to go troll?<br /><br />The simple fact is this: the Roman church teaches the insufficiency of Christ. The Lutheran church teaches the vicarious satisfaction. I'll stick with the latter and not attempt to add to Christ's work.<br /><br />And for those with questions, since I hold out no hope of convincing you with scripture or arguments, I simply point you to the masterwork "Christian Dogmatics" by F. Pieper. Therein you will find answers to all your questions.jwskudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15641383927216557610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-10918102149479656482019-06-04T20:55:50.394-05:002019-06-04T20:55:50.394-05:00As I approach the table for Holy Communion, I revi...As I approach the table for Holy Communion, I review what I was once taught in LCMS confirmation class: Examine my heart and repent of my sins; Beg God for forgiveness; Thank Jesus for all He has done for us; and finally, ask Him to strengthen my faith. To me, *that* is an authentic confessional Lutheran Sacrament. It is heavy. It is deep. It is sorrowful, full of remorse, and yet hopeful at the same time.<br /><br />I have visited enough non-denominational and generic Protestant services to realize that the participants don't consider any of those Lutheran things. They simply tip a shot of grape juice and nibble on the ritz cracker to commemorate the memory of Jesus. I have seen friends and associates of the deceased drink shots of whiskey at a funeral home. Other than that brief reflection, the non-Lutheran Protestant Eucharist is quick and shallow. On to the next praise band song!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-39347148335675050002019-06-04T16:05:53.599-05:002019-06-04T16:05:53.599-05:00Following with interest...it should be pointed out...Following with interest...it should be pointed out that Vehse assumes the word/term "Mass" was not used by Luther after Luther said what he said in the Smalcald Articles. In fact, it was, long after his death. Why? Because they knew what the Augsburg Confession and the Apology of the Augsburg meant when using the word "Mass" and they understood and agreed with what Luther had to say about the "Mass" in the Smalcald Articles. They were able to make proper distinctions, and as Anon has pointed out above, this is not something that is within Mr. Vehse's competence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-55682018723399001112019-06-04T15:48:13.267-05:002019-06-04T15:48:13.267-05:00Continuing his Pavolovian sputterings, Vehse again...Continuing his Pavolovian sputterings, Vehse again reveals his fundamentally tragic lack of ability to read and comprehend theology and church history.<br /><br />The"Mass" which is condemned in the Lutheran Confessions is specifically the Roman Canon of the Mass, which Luther removed from the Lutheran Mass.<br /><br />The "Mass" praised and appealed to the in the AC is what the subject of this article is about.<br /><br />Vehse is so blinded by his ignorance he has no ability to make proper distinctions.<br /><br />The word "Messe" was used in various Lutheran Church orders, and of course, the Swedish Church did not do away with the word as shorthand for the service of Holy Communion.<br /><br />But right on cue, ring his bells and Vehse lapses into Pavolovian responses. <br /><br />He just can't help himself, the poor old fellow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-72862752998962814422019-06-04T11:48:38.788-05:002019-06-04T11:48:38.788-05:00Anonymous while we're at it then, please tell ...Anonymous while we're at it then, please tell me where in the Bible it says Bible alone? Faith alone (oh, the epistle of straw is the only epistle where you will find "faith alone" but in the negative sense)? What about private interpretation? If so, then why did the eunuch need elucidation of the scriptures? <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-57086980832985032552019-06-04T11:39:47.660-05:002019-06-04T11:39:47.660-05:00"if we are taking Church Father, then are onl... "if we are taking Church Father, then are only 2 Sacraments, no purgatory, no prayers to saint, no pope!, and other inventions of the later church."<br /><br />Which "Church Fathers," can you tell me, said that there are only two sacraments, or that intercessory petitions to saints are forbidden?William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09043433059401608468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-46937887302640409222019-06-04T11:28:48.300-05:002019-06-04T11:28:48.300-05:00Okay, if we are taking Church Father, then are onl...Okay, if we are taking Church Father, then are only 2 Sacraments, no purgatory, no prayers to saint, no pope!, and other inventions of the later church. <br />So yes, historical, authentic congregations of the LCMS are more catholic than the Romans and desire to only belief, teach, confess, practice as the Church always has without making things up, holding to any teachings of man, or taking things out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-55721563932293481822019-06-04T10:48:10.425-05:002019-06-04T10:48:10.425-05:00Jwskud,
Yes once for all but in eternity. I fail...Jwskud,<br /><br />Yes once for all but in eternity. I fail to see how you don't see that. Your theology is insufficient. The Church Fathers always understood and taught that this sacrifice is present in eternity and that when we attend Mass or Divine Liturgy, that sacrifice is made present again NOT that we are re-sacrificing Christ on the Holy Cross but that the eternal comes to the temporal, in our times, that we are present today at the foot of the Cross at Mass or Divine Liturgy. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-82826672765433738282019-06-04T10:40:55.349-05:002019-06-04T10:40:55.349-05:00For those seeking the Lutheran (i.e. historic) lit...For those seeking the Lutheran (i.e. historic) liturgy when traveling [without the man-invented trappings of Rome, I might add (Mk 7:7-13)], I highly recommend this website:<br /><br />http://lutheranliturgy.org/<br /><br />It is not as up-to-date as it once was, but it's the best I can offer.<br /><br />To Daniel G., I suggest you take a gander at 1 Cor 10:16 (bread, body, wine, and blood are all present in the Lord's Supper), as well as Rom 6:10, and Heb 7:27, 9:12, 9:26, 10:2, and 10:10 and its emphasis on "once for all." Consider how the Roman church teaches the total insufficiency of Christ and His work for us.jwskudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15641383927216557610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-51214295886925547472019-06-04T10:27:15.541-05:002019-06-04T10:27:15.541-05:00Mr. Strickhert,
Let's fact it, you can quote ...Mr. Strickhert,<br /><br />Let's fact it, you can quote your Smalcald, Augsburg Confession, Book of Concord and whatever erroneous Lutheran source you can come up with, all of them private interpretations of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and a gross misreading of the Church Fathers you want but the fact remains that whenever and wherever you go to Divine Service, all you receive is bread and wine at "holy communion'; that is, you commune with bread and wine NOT with Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. <br /><br />As I have said before, for you a Lutheran, your entire existence is based upon denigrating the Catholic Church without which you would not exist as an institution. Take away the Catholic Church, take away your life blood. <br /><br />Bless your heart!<br /><br />Daniel G.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-50697992482414777212019-06-04T10:08:28.396-05:002019-06-04T10:08:28.396-05:00Anon @9:42 AM,
If you didn't have your nonLut...Anon @9:42 AM,<br /><br />If you didn't have your nonLutheran head jammed so far up your keister, you would realize the Augsburg Confession was written in 1530, the Smalcald Articles were written in 1536, and the Solid Declaration was written in 1577.<br /><br />In his "<a href="http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/PreusDanielLutherandtheMass.pdf" rel="nofollow">Luther and the Mass: Justification and the Joint Declaration</a>" (<i>Logia</i>, X:4, 2001, 13-19) Rev. Daniel Preus explains:<br /><br />"By 1533, however, Luther came to the conclusion that 'mass' should no longer be used in reference to the sacrament of the altar. Luther’s <i>Letter Concerning His Book on the Private Mass</i> is very illuminating in regard to his distinction between the two."<br /><br />"But Luther's condemnation of the mass was not limited to the private mass. He viewed the mass itself as a 'papistic idoI.' When he wrote, 'This is the true and chief abomination and the basis of all blasphemy in the papacy," he spoke not of the private mass alone. It is the mass itself that is the greatest of all abominations, whether it take place privately or publicly." <br /><br />"Luther was convinced that the use of the terms 'mass' and 'sacrament' interchangeably has resulted in great confusion, and that the only way to provide a clear understanding of the nature of the Lord's Supper is to stop calling it the mass. 'Indeed, I wish and would very much like to see and hear that the two words 'mass' and 'sacrament' would be understood as being as different as darkness and light, yes, as different as devil and God.' Again Luther prayed,<br /><br />"<i>'May God grant to all devout Christians such hearts that when they hear the word 'mass,' they might be frightened and make the sign of the cross as though it were the devil's abomination; on the other hand, when they hear the word "sacrament" or "Lord's Supper" they might dance for pure joy…'</i>"Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-68702014182299823092019-06-04T10:06:40.503-05:002019-06-04T10:06:40.503-05:00Anon @ 9:30 AM,
Just what an anti-Lutheran, papis...Anon @ 9:30 AM,<br /><br />Just what an anti-Lutheran, papish proselytizer would be expected to spout on a Lutheran blog.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-18099785793992741862019-06-04T09:42:11.012-05:002019-06-04T09:42:11.012-05:00Vehse's Pavlovian off-point salivations not wi...Vehse's Pavlovian off-point salivations not withstanding, it should be noted that one will also find these comments in the Book of Concord, to wit, the Augsburg Confession:<br /><br />""Since, therefore, the Mass among us is supported by the example of the church as seen from the Scriptures and the Fathers, we are confident that it cannot be disapproved, especially since the customary public ceremonies are for the most part retained." (Augsburg Confession XXIV:40) Also, "We on our part also retain many ceremonies and traditions (such as the liturgy of the Mass and various canticles, festivals, and the like) which serve to preserve order in the church." (Augburg Confession Article XXVI:40) And, "We gladly keep the old traditions set up in the church because they are useful and promote tranquility...Our enemies falsely accuse us of abolishing good ordinances and church discipline...the public liturgy is more decent than in theirs." (Apology to the Augsburg Confession, Article XV:38–39) And, "...we do not abolish the Mass but religiously keep and defend it." (Apology to the Augsburg Confession Article XXIV:1)And, "We on our part also retain many ceremonies and traditions (such as the liturgy of the Mass and various canticles, festivals, and the like) which serve to preserve order in the church." (Augburg Confession, Article XXVI:40)"<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-39125532344012922262019-06-04T09:30:50.701-05:002019-06-04T09:30:50.701-05:00Mr. Strickhert,
The "Romanist" is not ...Mr. Strickhert, <br /><br />The "Romanist" is not confused. He is very much correct. Since Luther denied the character of the Priesthood and the Sacrificial nature of the Mass (it always seemed odd to me that Lutherans have an "altar" since for Lutherans there is no sacrifice. An altar is for sacrifice but I digress....) which renders your ministerial orders invalid and therefore your "sacrament" invalid; ie, no Jesus present. <br /><br />Also regarding the Real Presence: For Catholics and Orthodox Jesus is present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity which means that the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine but have become the very Body and Blood of Christ. When Christ says that this IS my body and this IS my blood then we take Christ at his words. For the Orthodox, they don't define how that happens but for them it happens at the epiclesis (correct me if I am wrong you Orthodox readers) and for Catholics it happens at the Words of Institution. <br /><br />And after Mass or Divine Liturgy, if there is any of the Sacred Species left, they remain the Body and Blood of Christ. They do not cease to be so after the end of the service.<br /><br />Daniel G.<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-74111823012780395232019-06-04T08:30:15.190-05:002019-06-04T08:30:15.190-05:00"After Mass, I attended a Lutheran service wi...<i>"After Mass, I attended a Lutheran service with my sister’s family and it was more reverent without Jesus’s actual presence!"</i> <br /><br />The Romanist is confused. The Smalcald Articles straighten things out:<br /><br />SA.II.II: 1] That the Mass in the Papacy must be the greatest and most horrible abomination, as it directly and powerfully conflicts with this chief article, and yet above and before all other popish idolatries it has been the chief and most specious.<br /><br />5] Let [care be taken that] it be publicly preached to the people that the Mass as men's twaddle [commentitious affair or human figment] can be omitted without sin, and that no one will be condemned who does not observe it, but that he can be saved in a better way without the Mass. I wager [Thus it will come to pass] that the Mass will then collapse of itself, not only among the insane [rude] common people, but also among all pious, Christian, reasonable, God-fearing hearts; and that the more, when they would hear that the Mass is a [very] dangerous thing, fabricated and invented without the will and Word of God.<br /><br />11] In addition to all this, this dragon's tail, [I mean] the Mass, has begotten a numerous vermin-brood of manifold idolatries.<br /><br />SD.VII.85: To preserve this true Christian doctrine concerning the Holy Supper, and to avoid and abolish manifold idolatrous abuses and perversions of this testament, the following useful rule and standard has been derived from the words of institution: <i>Nihil habet rationem sacramenti extra usum a Christo institutum</i> ("Nothing has the nature of a sacrament apart from the use instituted by Christ") or extra actionem divinitus institutam ("apart from the action divinely instituted"). That is: If the institution of Christ be not observed as He appointed it, there is no sacrament.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.com