tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post1416955259334891856..comments2024-03-18T12:54:19.748-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: A curious aversion. . .Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-61582969336537032562019-07-07T07:49:58.658-05:002019-07-07T07:49:58.658-05:00In removing comments from another post, somehow a ...In removing comments from another post, somehow a few of these comments also were removed. I apologize and am not sure if they are permanently gone. I would urge readers to read what I posted on the July 6 post.Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-35414895449169944182019-07-04T20:05:53.203-05:002019-07-04T20:05:53.203-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-7150610583668272322019-07-04T20:03:46.946-05:002019-07-04T20:03:46.946-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-66095798939156182492019-07-04T16:17:58.151-05:002019-07-04T16:17:58.151-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-10099734991350199932019-07-04T15:39:43.573-05:002019-07-04T15:39:43.573-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-74412983582389613682019-07-04T14:50:20.226-05:002019-07-04T14:50:20.226-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-8138203949191415982019-07-04T14:20:15.274-05:002019-07-04T14:20:15.274-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-80245294851069410002019-07-04T14:14:52.816-05:002019-07-04T14:14:52.816-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-91665963570058039662019-07-04T14:08:59.257-05:002019-07-04T14:08:59.257-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-89031839996852126652019-07-04T14:01:29.938-05:002019-07-04T14:01:29.938-05:00No, does not "sound about right" ... sou...No, does not "sound about right" ... sound like you, Anon at 10:49 suffer from an incurable case of "Roma Phobia" when you are eager to identify with non-Lutheran Evangelicals, dismiss the history of your own church, and claim "Romanism!" on this subject.<br /><br />Sad, and pathetic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-28929294927437383202019-07-04T10:49:58.341-05:002019-07-04T10:49:58.341-05:00Chaplain 7904, please elaborate on your comment:
...Chaplain 7904, please elaborate on your comment:<br /><br />"There is another advantage to chanting: it puts distance between Lutherans and Fundamentalists / Evangelicals. That is probably needed. It raises the ecclesiastical bar. That is probably needed."<br /><br />So we need to put distance between Evangelicals, who teach faith alone, scripture alone, grace alone, in order to slide closer to RC/EO, who teach earned grace, love, and works for salvation; that Mary is co-Redemptrix with Christ, that the pope is divinely infallible, that priests confect and re-present the sacrifice of Christ as a work each day, and who condemn the chief article of justification by faith alone?<br /><br />Sounds about right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-87015736430776262732019-07-04T09:33:56.382-05:002019-07-04T09:33:56.382-05:00Because chanting is notated doesn't make it mu...Because chanting is notated doesn't make it music. It has musical qualities but chanting is better thought of as elevated speech, in keeping with the elevated nature of the subject matter. The divine Word.<br /><br />I share the sensibilities of the person earlier in the comments who disliked the affected nasal, even British sound of chanting, and its nasal breaks. Repristinating a former version of chanting is not required. If you want to learn how to chant well go to an EO church where it is totally natural.<br /><br />Nonwtheless if the pastor is a bad chanter he should tell the complainer: "This is the voice of your father, learn to love it."<br /><br />There is another advantage to chanting: it puts distance between Lutherans and Fundamentalists / Evangelicals. That is probably needed. It raises the ecclesiastical bar. That is probably needed.<br /><br />chaplain7904https://www.blogger.com/profile/14568518517581646470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-10859322365062441202019-07-03T09:17:51.310-05:002019-07-03T09:17:51.310-05:00Anon at 9:16
That's a remarkably silly commen...Anon at 9:16<br /><br />That's a remarkably silly comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-85421762111350930022019-07-03T09:16:49.732-05:002019-07-03T09:16:49.732-05:00Here is what I don't like about chanting. It ...Here is what I don't like about chanting. It is clumsy. Squeezing English words into melodies and rhythms where they do not fit. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-43778260998121031292019-07-03T07:21:05.354-05:002019-07-03T07:21:05.354-05:00@Anon at 12:42 in the wee hours
You are deliberat...@Anon at 12:42 in the wee hours<br /><br />You are deliberately missing the point of Pastor Peters post, of course either is fine, he is addressing the folks who think that is not true, who have a bizarre emotional non-Biblical and non-Confessional aversion to chanting.<br /><br />Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-9901543503846062252019-07-03T00:42:52.676-05:002019-07-03T00:42:52.676-05:00"Now, in the administration of the Holy Suppe..."Now, in the administration of the Holy Supper the words of institution are to be publicly spoken or sung before the congregation distinctly and clearly, and should in no way be omitted [and this for very many and the most important reasons..."<br /><br />Solid Declaration, Formula of Concord, AKA the Lutheran Confessions.<br /><br />"Spoken or sung." Either one is fine. Neither is better or more Lutheran.<br /><br />Again, from the Lutheran Confessions.<br /><br />Wow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-90077230678170704082019-07-02T19:18:38.168-05:002019-07-02T19:18:38.168-05:00Said above:
everything's adiaphora, "as ...Said above:<br /><br />everything's adiaphora, "as long as it pleases us," as Luther said. <br /><br />Uh, that is NOT what adiaphora means or what Luther said or what the Confessions speak of when it comes to such things. I don't know where you got the idea that adiaphora means whatever makes us feel good but that is the worst possible definition you could come up with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-46434674604936594482019-07-02T15:50:42.119-05:002019-07-02T15:50:42.119-05:00In other words, I'm upset that we are not doin...In other words, I'm upset that we are not doing page 5 and 15 as I remember it from my childhood, and anything else is pomp!<br /><br />Bronze agers are hopeless.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-20675443526749306712019-07-02T11:08:04.609-05:002019-07-02T11:08:04.609-05:00You can smile that some Lutherans have a sense of ...You can smile that some Lutherans have a sense of humor and realize that beyond pure Word and Sacrament ministry, everything's adiaphora, "as long as it pleases us," as Luther said. Look, all Lutherans are raised knowing what adiaphora is. Visit a creepy Reformed church with no stained glass or crosses and you know the difference. Visit a Catholic church with candles in front of a statue of the Virgin Mary, and parishioners superstitiously dipping their fingers into bowls of "holy water" and clutching rosaries and you know the difference.<br /><br />This notion that Lutherans don't know who they are is hogwash, fabricated by the empowered high church crowd to "move the needle" further to the right in the LCMS. Luther deliberately eschewed incense and and holy water at the Torgau dedication. No amount of hand waving that Lutherans uncritically preserved all medieval church practices squares with a fair reading of Reformation history. Lutherans adopted a middle path then, as we do now. If your church in 1530 had a giant altarpiece of the Virgin Mary, great. We're not in the business of destroying church art. But the Lutheran doctrinal attitude is different. Art becomes didactic, as indeed the liturgy is didactic in "teaching us to be Christians." The Lutheran attitude is NOT "that altarpiece is something we'll cling to passionately and deride those who do not cherish our customs in the future, because we're really just perpetual medieval Catholics, with a dash of justification thrown in." There is no "forgetting of Lutheran identity" in abandoning chant or anything else that pleases us, because Lutheran identity is not tied to pomp and circumstance, but to Word and Sacrament. How often the confessions say this over and over! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-72438959563938014282019-07-02T10:27:53.776-05:002019-07-02T10:27:53.776-05:00So anonymous above, chanting ended for Lutherans w...So anonymous above, chanting ended for Lutherans with PA systems?? Now that is novel.<br /><br />Your list is a either a humorous look at Lutheran practices or else it is an occasion for tears at how Lutherans have forgotten their identity and taken up a bare minimum as the new Lutheran maximum. Not sure whether to smile or cry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-45797400937506827772019-07-01T14:26:54.847-05:002019-07-01T14:26:54.847-05:00That being said:
Crucifix = Lutheran
Pastoral Spo...That being said:<br /><br />Crucifix = Lutheran<br />Pastoral Spoken TLH liturgy = Lutheran<br />Pastoral Pre-microphone days sung liturgy = Lutheran<br />Cassock and surplice = Lutheran<br />Alb and stole = Seminex, LBW ELCA and LW LCMS Lutheran<br />Handbell choir = unfortunately LW LCMS Lutheran<br />Pictures/Statues of Jesus = Lutheran<br />Pictures of Saints = as long as you don't take off your hat to them, Lutheran<br />Incense, Chrism, and Holy Water = Not Lutheran<br />Chasubles = tolerated on Scandinavian LCMS Lutherans<br />Genuflecting AKA liturgical gymnastics = Lutheran when consisting of a simple bow to the altar, usually after rising from kneeling for communion, otherwise Not Lutheran.<br />Pointy hats = Not Lutheran<br />Pyxes = Not Lutheran<br />Pomp = Not Lutheran<br />"How Great Thou Art" = unfortunately Lutheran<br />Ringing a bell at communion = strangely, no one really gets worked up over this one<br />Candles = Lutheran<br />A friendly dog in the narthex = Lutheran<br />A bare cross = 1950s "Rocket Age" streamlined design Lutheran<br />A bare, freestanding altar = Luther's German Mass Lutheran<br />Signing social and theological statements with Catholics, Reformed, and Muslims = *sigh* LutheranAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-394300723432007842019-07-01T14:21:19.504-05:002019-07-01T14:21:19.504-05:00@July 1, 2019 at 2:05 PM
Obviously, if we are to ...@July 1, 2019 at 2:05 PM<br /><br />Obviously, if we are to believe what one chap wrote here earlier today, those pastors who chanted, etc. were just putting on a show and were intending to put the focus on themselves.<br /><br />:/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-46913202534737807112019-07-01T14:05:36.145-05:002019-07-01T14:05:36.145-05:00"Strangely enough I grew up in a very anti-Ro..."Strangely enough I grew up in a very anti-Roman Catholic Lutheran parish but the pastor chanted, the church bell was rung during the consecration and Our Father, and we had a crucifix and a statue of Jesus on the altar. So did nearly ever other old Lutheran congregation around Nebraska. So be sure and tell me that these things are also not Lutheran also."<br /><br />"One cannot simply be Lutheran. That actually goes against Lutheran theology and doctrine. What people are or identify as is not the issue. Rather it is the substance of what is believed and confessed that should be the focus of our attention. One cannot have Lutheran hair, Lutheran eyes, or Lutheran toes. “Lutheran” medical care, banking, and insurance is impossible. Lutheranism cannot course through the veins of a person and act like magic pixie dust on all their actions, even if one's family was raised in the Lutheran church for generations and possesses a really Germanic or Scandinavian name. Neither can a publishing house or human institution simply be Lutheran for all time. The label of “Lutheran” applies most accurately to particular words and teachings that tell the saving truth of God. Lutheran is not a static category, like good or bad, rich or poor, black or white. To embrace the Lutheran doctrine is to continually fight to hold and maintain the pure truth."<br /><br />https://www.zionwest.org/pastors-pasture/messages-from-pastor-hale/350-being-lutheran-is-not-lutheran.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-70352386441300819722019-07-01T12:46:48.142-05:002019-07-01T12:46:48.142-05:00Anonymous to Bragg; I know. Just one more exampl...Anonymous to Bragg; I know. Just one more example of how Lutheranism has departed from the Faith and Life of the Church.<br />Joseph Braggnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-33783580849577403122019-07-01T10:02:15.092-05:002019-07-01T10:02:15.092-05:00@Bragg, if your comment was made in jest, I got a...@Bragg, if your comment was made in jest, I got a chuckle out of it.<br /><br />If serious, you'll understand that Lutherans regard such fantasies as quaint if not delusional accounts.<br /><br />And it adds nothing to this post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com