tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post1955289384164070119..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Lutheran Amnesia. . .Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-66592587294903683582017-09-21T00:25:23.009-05:002017-09-21T00:25:23.009-05:00A brief discussion of the history of private confe...A brief discussion of the history of private confession in Berlin at a SELK congregation site:<br /><br />http://www.lutherisch.de/index.php/glaube/vertiefung/luthers-kleiner-katechismus-teil-2/80-vom-amt-der-schll-und-von-der-beichte-2Joannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09777514643611989502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-30022985570017851702017-09-19T19:10:14.449-05:002017-09-19T19:10:14.449-05:00I was confirmed in the LCMS in the mid 1970s. I wa...I was confirmed in the LCMS in the mid 1970s. I was taught from Luther's Small Catechism. Private confession was never taught nor practiced. Likewise, I never heard of the Book of Concord until 30 years after confirmation. I never knew Lutherans even allowed private confession - too Roman Catholic. If Lutherans are not catechized that private confession is strongly encouraged, it doesn't matter if there is a rite. I have never participated in private confession but believe it is good and salutary. <br /><br />James Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-15576859598570566202017-09-19T18:15:24.611-05:002017-09-19T18:15:24.611-05:00I just consulted two Roman Catholic, pre-Vatican I...I just consulted two Roman Catholic, pre-Vatican II Roman missals for lay people (one Latin/English and the other Latin/German). Neither of them has a rite for private confession. Therefore, using the same line of argument employed by the original post, I conclude that pre-Vatican II Roman Catholics knew nothing about the practice of private confession.<br /><br />The point being overlooked is that one doesn't need an elaborate rite for private confession. Even in the Roman Church, it is simply, "Bless me, father, for I have sinned. It has been ____ days/weeks since my last confession." The rest is largely ad lib, although the priest has a formula for absolution.<br /><br />I don't say this to disparage the rites for private confession in Lutheran Worship and in the Lutheran Service Book. But you might consider that pre-1960 LCMS folk lined up at the parsonage on Friday nights to confess their sins to the pastor before going to communion the following Sunday. They did so without any particular rite to help them. Meanwhile, we have a full-fledged, beautiful, Scripturally rich rite, but next to nobody goes to confession.James Kellermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13159737422545602449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-54423838843089574492017-09-19T11:55:54.935-05:002017-09-19T11:55:54.935-05:00Unknown ex-Lutheran: Since when did that apply to...<b>Unknown ex-Lutheran:</b> <i>Since when did that apply to confession? NEver.</i> <br /><br />The AC reference and quoted Apology excerpt were to the formalized and procedural rites, not to the actual exercise of the Office of the Keys in Confession and Absolution. <br /><br /><b>Unknown ex-Lutheran:</b> <i>IT's because of hogwash like this (yes, it is) that I'm no longer Lutheran.</i> <br /><br />I seriously doubt that whatever I or some other layman said to you was responsible for you no longer being Lutheran. You are no longer Lutheran because you no longer subscribe without reservation to the Lutheran Confessions. <br /><br /><b>Unknown ex-Lutheran:</b> <i>maybe, Carl, you can explain to me how private confession is NOT or CANNOT be beneficial for our souls</i><br /><br />Who said that "<i>private confession is NOT or CANNOT be beneficial for our souls</i>"?!? Not me. <br /><br /><b>Unknown ex-Lutheran:</b> <i>"and you have the unmitigated gall to accuse others of pietism. Look in the mirror, Carl."</i><br /><br />Unknown ex-Lutheran, the next time you go to confession, talk to your pastor about your bitterness and your evident tendency to fling unsubstantiated criticism at others.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-48200669852154714792017-09-19T11:14:07.647-05:002017-09-19T11:14:07.647-05:00In the Small Catechism, Martin Luther clearly stat...In the Small Catechism, Martin Luther clearly states, that before God<br />we MUST plead guilty of all sins. He adds that before the pastor we<br />MAY confess those sins which trouble our hearts.<br /><br />The laity do not need a rite of confession when they go to their pastor<br />and share their burdens. A rite can become a mechanical ritual which<br />avoids the genuine interaction of pastor and laity. I want a pastor<br />who listens to my confession and graciously assures me of God's love<br />and forgiveness. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-40941055893663863732017-09-19T11:11:16.706-05:002017-09-19T11:11:16.706-05:00Carl Veshe wrote the following:
Concerning the fo...Carl Veshe wrote the following:<br /><br />Concerning the formalized and procedural rites of the Church the expositions in AC.VII and Ap VII/VIII.31 apply.<br /><br />"For this we say that similarity of human rites, whether universal or particular, is not necessary, because the righteousness of faith is not a righteousness bound to certain traditions [outward ceremonies of human ordinances] as the righteousness of the Law was bound to the Mosaic ceremonies, because this righteousness of the heart is a matter that quickens the heart." <br /><br />Since when did that apply to confession? NEver. Otherwise, it would not have been retained and almost elevated to sacramental level. (It should be a sacrament). IT's because of hogwash like this (yes, it is) that I'm no longer Lutheran. The Catholic priniple has been long jettisoned and something as beneficial and even necessary as confession (maybe, Carl, you can explain to me how private confession is NOT or CANNOT be beneficial for our souls) is seen as merely a human ceremony. It is a means of grace. I'm sure you'll respond saying that you can confess your sins to God. WHy do you need to do that? He already knows. So why not confess to one of his servants and receive through him the comfort you need which obviously you do not crave enough because going through a priest is an uncomfortable act. and you have the unmitigated gall to accuse others of pietism. Look in the mirror, Carl.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08038508116670615703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-62222758438156617912017-09-19T11:07:04.908-05:002017-09-19T11:07:04.908-05:00Fr. Peters, you wrote the following: Holy Communi...Fr. Peters, you wrote the following: Holy Communion was four times a year (<b>whether you needed it or not</b>). Everyone always needs the Eucharist. No one does not not need it.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08038508116670615703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-52738304122313720302017-09-19T10:15:03.488-05:002017-09-19T10:15:03.488-05:00That some Lutheran pastors have inadequately catec...That some Lutheran pastors have inadequately catechized their catechumens is a sad fact, which has resulted in numerous Lutherans leaning and eventually falling off on one side or the other into the ditch of Romanism or the ditch of pietistical schwärmerei.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-32613924628864379582017-09-19T10:13:41.279-05:002017-09-19T10:13:41.279-05:00Holy Scripture does not say that without a formali...Holy Scripture does not say that without a formalized and procedural rite, private confession will become a footnote in history and not a part of ordinary faith and piety among Christians (including Lutherans). <br /><br />Concerning the formalized and procedural rites of the Church the expositions in <a href="http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article7" rel="nofollow">AC.VII</a> and <a href="http://bookofconcord.org/defense_6_church.php#para31" rel="nofollow">Ap VII/VIII.31</a> apply.<br /><br /><i>"For this we say that similarity of human rites, whether universal or particular, is not necessary, because the righteousness of faith is not a righteousness bound to certain traditions [outward ceremonies of human ordinances] as the righteousness of the Law was bound to the Mosaic ceremonies, because this righteousness of the heart is a matter that quickens the heart." </i><br /><br />Concerning private confession and absolution, the expositions within the Book of Concord of 1580 apply, including: <a href="http://bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article11" rel="nofollow">AC.XI</a>; <a href="http://bookofconcord.org/defense_9_confession.php#para63" rel="nofollow">Ap.XI.63-67</a>; and <a href="http://bookofconcord.org/smalcald.php#part3.8.1" rel="nofollow">SA.III.III.1-2</a>.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-43795350249878425462017-09-19T07:51:11.596-05:002017-09-19T07:51:11.596-05:00Yet without a rite, it became a footnote in histor...Yet without a rite, it became a footnote in history and not a part of ordinary faith and piety among Lutherans. FWIW, I was catechized in the '43 Catechism and not one moment was given to the practice only to the theory. I expect that this IS normative among Lutherans of my age.Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-58818934003414077522017-09-19T07:18:15.064-05:002017-09-19T07:18:15.064-05:00What Lutheran amnesia?!?
Confession, including pr...What Lutheran amnesia?!?<br /><br />Confession, including private confession, was <b>indeed explained</b> in the Short Explanation of Dr. Martin Luther's Small Catechism that was included in the 1943 CPH Edition of <i>Luther's Small Catechism</i> (pp. 188 - 192). It included what type of sins we should confess to the pastor and how we should regard the absolution pronounced by the pastor.<br /><br />Private confession was further explained by the pastor who taught the catechism class I was in. Since then, whenever the subject has come up, private confession has been further discussed by other pastors in adult Bible and catechism classes I've attend. <br /><br />While a formalized and procedural "rite of private confession" was not printed out in the 1943 CPH catechism book, the CPH book also did not contain the formalized and procedural rite of ordination or the details of various liturgical rituals performed by the pastor.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.com