tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post3050016608508515306..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: If only the Lord knew what we know. . .Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-28173325320796342422020-07-24T09:03:18.327-05:002020-07-24T09:03:18.327-05:00Mr. Strickert, When Luther's Pastor made deci...Mr. Strickert, When Luther's Pastor made decisions Luther was not sure he would have made (elimination of the elevation), even the mighty Luther did not pack up his bags and find a new congregation. That is my point. There is no freedom in personal preference because for the sake of survival nearly every congregation will succumb to the need to make sure people are voting for them with their pocketbooks. If people disagreed but remained in the congregation, then the freedom of which Luther spoke (not the freedom of the individual here but the freedom of the church to use or not to use) would remain. You well know that the number of Lutheran congregations even occasionally using incense is statistically insignificant. So why is this such a hot button issue for you? When my parish uses incense we also have another service at which incense is not used and the numbers show half the people come to the incense. We are not arbitrary or indifferent to people but neither do we allow the almighty individual preference, which you should also be against, to rule the day.<br /><br />In case you missed it, the whole point of my post was simply that we know better than God and how that has manifested itself in our decision that incense is and was always bad for the health, the chalice should be removed, etc... I would think that instead of rushing to insist incense is optional, you might agree with the main premise of the post.<br /><br />BTW I doubt that Luther would have much positive to say about people voting with their pocketbook or moving their membership around every time they find something they dislike (which is hardly ever a doctrinal aberration that should be rightfully noted but is nearly always a matter of personal preference and taste). Such a thing would be abhorrent to Luther and you and I both know that. To suggest that Luther was champion of the idea that people are the arbiters of what practices are free is a misreading of Luther. Luther's congregation, remember, was supported by the Prince and was not subject to the autonomy of the offering plate and decisions on free matters were not made by the person in the pew but by the church and its jurisdiction. But again, you are not ignorant, you know that. Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-66266717994052321522020-07-23T22:44:18.447-05:002020-07-23T22:44:18.447-05:00Rev. Peters: Why God commanded incense or circumci...Rev. Peters: <i>Why God commanded incense or circumcision or bread and wine or whatever is not now nor has it ever been the issue. The obedience of faith trusts God's Word and wisdom and that is that.</i><br /><br />The issue is not about the elements in the Lord's Supper, but rather your previous claim (with present tense verbs), "Lev. 16 clearly shows that the Lord prescribes, orders, and commands the use of incense," which failed to distinguish what is stated in <i>Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation</i> (CPH, 2017, p. 54): "Only the moral law was written on the human hearts and continues to apply to all people. People are confused by the Bible and even misuse it when they fail to realize that the Old Testament ceremonies and ceremonial law (which applied to Israel and an be hard to comprehend) do <i>not</i> apply to Christians, or anyone else, since Christ's death and resurrection."<br /><br />Rev. Peters: <i>BTW you may also want to read<br />https://aleteia.org/2020/06/02/how-incense-at-mass-might-reduce-airborne-diseases/</i><br /><br />Whether or not, in a church environment, concentrations of burnt incense fumes can kill significant percentages of certain bacteria, fungi or virus, while at the same time not causing harmful effects on the respiratory system or to those who suffer from asthma and other similar respiratory problems is a separate issue to whether today incense is (or is not) prohibited or prescribed by God.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-71091379296978547452020-07-23T22:39:59.415-05:002020-07-23T22:39:59.415-05:00Rev. Peters: So, Mr. Strickert, did Israel invent ...Rev. Peters: <i>So, Mr. Strickert, did Israel invent the use of incense in an effort to please God or did God prescribe it? If God prescribed it, what is the issue you have with it?</i><br /><br />Based on the statement by Martin Luther, and references to J.T. Mueller and <i>Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation</i>, the issue is that it is misleading and wrong to reference Old Testament ceremonical law as if to imply it were still prescribed and commanded for Christians in 1523 or today. <br /><br />Rev. Peters: <i>What Luther said may be true enough on paper but we all know that the Lutherans who read it insist that "free" means not here, not now, and not ever or I will go to another church. </i><br /><br />When Martin Luther stated in 1523, "Sixth, the Gospel lesson follows, for which we neither prohibit nor prescribe candles or incense. Let these things be free" (LW, 53, p. 25), this means that Lutherans are free to choose to be members in an orthodox Lutheran congregation that uses incense or to be members in an orthodox Lutheran congregation that does not use incense. <br /><br />Rev. Peters: <i>No one said that everything required of the Old Testament worship was required now but to suggest that God somehow did not know what He was doing or made a mistake or grew tired of incense and therefore, in freedom, it can be relegated to the trash heap of yesterday's piety is something that cannot go unchallenged.</i><br /><br />No one, including me, said, suggested, or implied that God somehow did not know what He was doing or made a mistake or grew tired of incense and therefore, in freedom, it can be relegated to the trash heap of yesterday's piety is something that cannot go unchallenged.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6319520223868366672020-07-22T13:52:59.704-05:002020-07-22T13:52:59.704-05:00So, Mr. Strickert, did Israel invent the use of in...So, Mr. Strickert, did Israel invent the use of incense in an effort to please God or did God prescribe it? If God prescribed it, what is the issue you have with it?<br /><br />What Luther said may be true enough on paper but we all know that the Lutherans who read it insist that "free" means not here, not now, and not ever or I will go to another church. The freedom which Luther ascribes here has been turned into an aversion and your response shows it.<br /><br />No one said that everything required of the Old Testament worship was required now but to suggest that God somehow did not know what He was doing or made a mistake or grew tired of incense and therefore, in freedom, it can be relegated to the trash heap of yesterday's piety is something that cannot go unchallenged. <br /><br />Why God commanded incense or circumcision or bread and wine or whatever is not now nor has it ever been the issue. The obedience of faith trusts God's Word and wisdom and that is that.<br /><br />And yes, Mr. Strickert, this is my blog and if I want to limit comments I may just as you are certainly free not to read it. You sound as if I am duty bound to let you complain predictably. I am not. You are welcome to read and comment within reason but I am also free to post whatever comments I wish to allow.<br /><br />BTW you may also want to read<br />https://aleteia.org/2020/06/02/how-incense-at-mass-might-reduce-airborne-diseases/<br /><br />If you disagree with that link, post your comments there, please.Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-65246651300780988732020-07-22T10:50:51.556-05:002020-07-22T10:50:51.556-05:00Rev. Peters:"Don't even start me on incen...Rev. Peters:<i>"Don't even start me on incense! Why would God have commanded the use of incense when smoke is a danger to the lungs and so many are allergic to it! Why, indeed!"</i> <br /><br />Since you have reopened the discussion on incense from a <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2020/03/cough-on-cue.html" rel="nofollow">March blog</a>, in which after posting four of your own comments, you then arbitrarily shut down the blog, the following comments apply to this and that blog.<br /><br />First, Rev. Peters <a href="http://pastoralmeanderings.blogspot.com/2020/03/cough-on-cue.html?showComment=1583791524545#c4719797547756617520" rel="nofollow">claims</a>, "Lev. 16 clearly shows that the Lord prescribes, orders, and commands the use of incense." <br /><br />Second, it was Martin Luther, not I, who stated in 1523, "Sixth, the Gospel lesson follows, for which we neither prohibit nor prescribe candles or incense. Let these things be free."(<a href="https://www.cph.org/p-1025-luthers-works-volume-53-liturgy-hymns.aspx" rel="nofollow">LW, 53</a>, p. 25)<br /><br />Third, it is misleading and wrong to reference Old Testament ceremonical law as if to imply it were still prescribed and commanded for Christians in 1523 or today. In addition to Martin Luther, there are other similar explanations made by J.T. Mueller (<i>Christian Dogmatics</i>, p. 212) and in <i>Luther's Small Catechism with Explanation</i> (CPH, 2017, p. 54).<br /><br />As for why God would have commanded the ceremonial use of incense for the Israelites, unless the Holy Spirit reveals God's reasoning in Holy Scripture, His will for that remains as part of <i>Deus absconditus</i>.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37869714026074193232020-07-19T18:56:37.904-05:002020-07-19T18:56:37.904-05:00It all boils down to the fact that Jesus is God. ...It all boils down to the fact that Jesus is God. I’m not sure I would commune with bread made from Darnel (that fits with today’s Gospel reading!), or commune on wine laced with arsenic, but gluten and a swallow of inexpensive wine with sulfites is not enough to harm anyone but the person with serious allergies. I will commune from the chalice as long as faithful pastors present it, and eat that bite of gluten (I am GF, BTW), knowing there is NO poison in the cup or the bread.<br /><br />Our Lord offers us the medicine of immortality; His Very Self. Let us not retreat from what we know to be True.Janis Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02947508427040251166noreply@blogger.com