tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post5430062017852594735..comments2024-03-29T04:31:15.219-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: We are our Rites!Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-40784565799648822482016-08-11T23:52:03.744-05:002016-08-11T23:52:03.744-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Padre Dave Poedelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14033503960196272783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-50430506909933038242016-08-10T17:17:03.876-05:002016-08-10T17:17:03.876-05:00"Not so with the Lutherans."
Not so wit...<br />"Not so with the Lutherans."<br /><br />Not so with MOST Lutherans. The exception was/is the Lutheran Landeskirchen of SW Germany, which jettisoned the historic Western liturgy entirely, in favor of services crafted de novo (based to a certain degree on the form of the pre-Reformation extra-liturgical "preaching service") and very similar in form to the services devised by the Swiss "Reformed Reformers" such as Zwingli (Zurich), Oecolampadius (Basel), and Haller (Berne), among others (I omit mention of Calvin, although his own "Form of Prayers" for Geneva was very much along the same lines, as he was a reformer of the next generation, and in aspiration sought in some respects a via media between Zwingli and Luther).<br /><br />Of course, the SW German Reformation's guiding star was Martin Bucer, the Reformer of Strasbourg, whose liturgical and sacramental views were very similar to those of Calvin, who, insofar as he was a disciple of any man, held Bucer for his master. Bucer, however, signed the Wittenberg Accord of 1536, which brought those SW German Protestant landeskirchen into Lutheranism - at first at a purely "abstract" doctrinal level (and with some fudging on the Eucharistic "bodily presence"), but then, from 1547 onwards (when Charles V gave these churches, most of which were in lands occupied by his forces at the time, the choice of either strict Lutheranism or restored Catholicism) into a firmer confessional Lutheranism (but still without any traditional liturgical form of services; Bucer himself fled to England, where he died, rather than accept "strict" Lutheranism). Calvin, on the other hand, signed the "Consensus Tigurinus" with Zurich (and its Chief Pastor, Zwingli's successor Heinrich Bullinger) in 1549 (in which Calvin made far more concessions to Bullinger's views, especially on the Eucharist, than Bullinger did to Calvin) which effectively brought Geneva into the Reformed camp.<br /><br />I know of no movement among Lutherans of the 16th-19th centuries to "disfellowship" these SW German Landeskirchen due to the "Reformed character" of their worship. (I believe that Lutherans in lands where Reformed Christianity was the dominant and official religion, as in the Dutch United Provinces, also "toned down," if they didn't jettison completely, the liturgical character of their worship, lest they be seen as "semi-papists," which was a not uncommon Reformed gibe directed at them.)<br />William Tighehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16634494183165592707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-5081598985786237012016-08-10T12:41:39.412-05:002016-08-10T12:41:39.412-05:00One of the key tenets of project management and hu...One of the key tenets of project management and human relations is that 80% of human communication is non-verbal. Words are very important. But if the way we comport ourselves, our use of gesture and ceremony are not congruent with the words we speak, our confession is muddled, if not contradicted. <br /><br />Reverence is both confession and proclamation. Rev. Larry Beanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06705910892752648940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-53912806556881374792016-08-10T10:54:49.412-05:002016-08-10T10:54:49.412-05:00Of interest is the Historical Liturgy by Pr. Will ...Of interest is the Historical Liturgy by Pr. Will Weedon:<br />http://issuesetc.org/historic-liturgy-series/<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37167877693709934982016-08-10T09:41:50.730-05:002016-08-10T09:41:50.730-05:00I love the liturgy as people describe today as &qu...I love the liturgy as people describe today as "Old School" and would think that references the last 500 years. With that said the following seems to state we have no stellar traditional Lutheran liturgy:<br /><br />“We unanimously believe, teach, and confess that the ceremonies or church rites which are neither commanded nor forbidden in God’s Word, but have been instituted alone for the sake of propriety and good order, are in and of themselves no divine worship, nor even a part of it. We believe, teach, and confess that the congregation of God of every place and every time has the power, according to its circumstances, to change such ceremonies in such manner as may be most useful and edifying to the congregation of God.” (Epitome of the Formula of Concord, Article X)ErnestOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13077415409728022160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37075938623151922592016-08-10T09:11:50.804-05:002016-08-10T09:11:50.804-05:00I love the Liturgy. It reaffirms what we believe i...I love the Liturgy. It reaffirms what we believe in word and spirit, and if the liturgy seems too "ceremonial" to some people, that is their problem. I have been in other denominational churches in my past,, and lack of a participatory Liturgy as done in the LCMS made the service incomplete. I would say, however, that some pastors in our Synod rely heavily on the Liturgy to absorb the time of worship, and thus, they give less than stellar sermons. The sermon becomes a 20 minute interlude. I think the LCMS needs to expand the sermon to a a half hour to forty five minutes of solid Biblical teaching and Lutheran doctrinal teaching. Since many Lutherans, to be honest, do not attend weekly Bible studies or Sunday school, it is essential to improve the quality and length of the Sunday message while retaining the Liturgy.John Joseph Flanaganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06596324816480709495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-298946863840254792016-08-10T08:24:13.830-05:002016-08-10T08:24:13.830-05:00"Any ceremony or words or practices that did ...<i>"Any ceremony or words or practices that did not conflict with that Gospel were free to be kept in good conscience. This is the clear catholic principle of Lutheran confession and practice."</i><br /><br />In the confessional context of SD.X, of course.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-85932584233530534652016-08-10T07:54:50.097-05:002016-08-10T07:54:50.097-05:00Extremely well put.Extremely well put.Dave Schumacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12867925326994864812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-68345481538732048052016-08-10T07:54:43.229-05:002016-08-10T07:54:43.229-05:00Extremely well put.Extremely well put.Dave Schumacherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12867925326994864812noreply@blogger.com