tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post575288758325243995..comments2024-03-18T12:54:19.748-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Good words....Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-1705771486055935492012-08-14T13:51:41.789-05:002012-08-14T13:51:41.789-05:00Thank you, Br. Marquart!Thank you, Br. Marquart!Janis Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02947508427040251166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-22145175477325476182012-08-14T13:04:51.819-05:002012-08-14T13:04:51.819-05:00Dear Ms. Williams:
Thank you for your comment.
I...Dear Ms. Williams:<br /><br />Thank you for your comment.<br /><br />I am also a layperson. If I know anything, it is because, just as with every other child of God, it has been given to me by the Holy Spirit through God’s word. God says, through the Prophet Jeremiah, in part (Jeremiah 31: 34), “…No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and remember their sin no more.” So don’t let your status as a layperson make you feel inferior: the knowledge of the mysteries of God is given to all of us in the same way. It is just that some have spent more time on the subject and have read the fine print.<br /><br />The Liturgy is the order of public worship. Some would argue that it always includes the celebration of the Lord’s Supper, but others accept that you may also call “The Service of the Word” liturgy. Here are a couple of web sites, which, in my opinion, give a good, basic background to the subject:<br /><br />http://www.redeemerlutheranchurch.org/histlit.htm<br />http://www.liturgica.com/html/lit.jsp<br /><br />I would not like to think that the Liturgy is intended to protect us from the Pastor and his preaching. It is intended to worship God in spoken words and song, to praise and give thanks, to hear and meditate on God’s word (Law and Gospel), and to celebrate the Sacraments, Baptism and the Eucharist. Certainly the Gospel of the New Covenant should predominate in the Liturgy, inasmuch as our Lord said, Luke 16: 16, “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.” <br /><br />My concern is that when the Liturgy becomes a “rite”, as it has in many parts of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the laity can begin to see attendance as an obligatory function, without immersing themselves in the profound experience of the Gospel in word and Sacrament. My personal experience (and I admit that may not be the highest standard of truth) is that many Eastern Orthodox Christians, who attend services regularly, think that to be certain of one’s salvation is a supreme form of pride. Most priests I have talked to on the subject, with some very notable exceptions, agree with this view. Thus they somehow miss the Gospel which surrounds them at every service.<br /><br />The word “doctrine” is a Latin translation of a Greek word which occurs 21 times in the New Testament, of which 11 are in the two Letters to Timothy. Basically it means “teaching.” Inasmuch as the “teaching” of the New Covenant is the Gospel, no doubt this is what St. Paul intended for Timothy to preach. But inasmuch as the St. Paul’s teaching also involved the Law, by which people are brought to the knowledge of their sinful condition, this teaching also included Law. Nevertheless, we should never forget that ultimately, St. Paul proclaims, (Romans 3:19) “Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For "no human being will be justified in his sight" by deeds prescribed by the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now, apart from law, the righteousness of God has been disclosed, and is attested by the law and the prophets, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.” <br /><br />I hope this helps. I hope others will contribute where I may have fallen short.<br /><br />Peace and Joy!<br />George A. Marquart<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-58130155753572143412012-08-14T09:32:19.873-05:002012-08-14T09:32:19.873-05:00Br. Marquhart,
I am only a layperson, so please f...Br. Marquhart,<br /><br />I am only a layperson, so please forgive my ignorance.<br /><br />Having come from an evangelical world which has no true liturgy, and very little if any Gospel, I was under a different impression.<br /><br />I have been told the Liturgy (done well) protects us from the pastor, i.e. the preacing. The liturgy is the Gospel presented to us every Sunday.<br /><br />I was also under the impression that doctrine was what St. Paul instructed Timothy to preach. Therefore, my understanding of doctrine is that it is the explanation of the Gospel.<br /><br />Forgive me if I'm wrong, and would some of you instruct me?Janis Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02947508427040251166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37424620192655322242012-08-13T15:23:42.644-05:002012-08-13T15:23:42.644-05:00George, the point of the article was not an overal...George, the point of the article was not an overall discussion of preaching but the contention of some liturgiologists that the sermon was not an essential part of the liturgy (which Elert refuted) and that the content of the sermon was not doctrinal (which Elert, again, refuted).<br /><br />If I had been addressing the whole issue of preaching in the Church, it would have been a far more complete post. I was contending that Elert was neither discounting liturgy (in which the sermon is integral) nor making preaching and liturgy compete. They work together. Authentic liturgy always includes a vibrant and faithful preaching of the Gospel (orthodox, rightly distinguishing Law and Gospel, and passionate).<br /><br />In this way the liturgy with its vibrant preaching of the Gospel (cross and resurrection) is catechetical. Unfortunaately, we find today good liturgy absent of a sermon that preaches Christ and Him crucified and preaching that is completely disconnected with the liturgy (and church year). In other words, we have preachers preaching anything and everything but the Gospel and we have liturgy that presumes the sermon is unimportant. Both are equally egregious errors that need to be addressed.Pastor Petershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-51130744898274164322012-08-13T12:56:31.051-05:002012-08-13T12:56:31.051-05:00Yes, it is possible not to see the elephant in the...Yes, it is possible not to see the elephant in the room! If we are not alarmed by the fact that a commentary about preaching does not contain the word “Gospel”, then we are indeed blind to the elephant. It is not in this blog, nor in President Harrison’s. <br /><br />“An Orthodox priest friend once told me that the main vehicle of catechesis in Orthodoxy is the Divine Liturgy and the preaching that takes place within it.” I will never forget when, with a group of Americans, I visited Sergiev Posad (known as Zagorsk in Soviet times), the citadel of Orthodoxy just east of Moscow. Our guide, a monk, brought us into one of the churches while the service was going on. The priest was giving his sermon. Our guide asked a member of the choir how long he had been preaching. He was told, “he has just started.” “Oh damn,” the monk responded (in all fairness, he said, “Ekh nakazanie” which means “Oh, punishment”, but the meaning is better translated by “oh damn”). This is what happens when the liturgy is elevated over preaching.<br /><br />It took Walther a while, but in the last of his Theses he said, “The Word of God is not rightly divided when the person teaching it does not allow the Gospel to have a general predominance in his teaching.” <br /><br />Of course the preaching in the ancient Church was doctrinal! But do you suppose that “the tremendous, dramatic emotion which the sermons evoked, even the cries with which the auditors interrupted the preacher,” were about anything but the joy of the Gospel?<br /><br />Peace and Joy!<br />George A. Marquart<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-25600118085101816142012-08-13T08:58:42.206-05:002012-08-13T08:58:42.206-05:00Pres. Harrison and the LCMS should also lament the...Pres. Harrison and the LCMS should also lament the state of liturgy in the Missouri Synod. It's all over the map and in a sad state. Time to deal with it also and get back to basics. Pastors have become sloppy, careless, and purposely ruining the liturgical life of our people. Time to repent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-44276510587889402882012-08-13T08:35:59.039-05:002012-08-13T08:35:59.039-05:00It is equally true that parishioners need to give ...It is equally true that parishioners need to give more time and attention to their worship habits: preparations for Mass, attentiveness during it, and forsaking their self-centered focus on their "busy" schedules, brunch plans, and play dates, etc. during Mass. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-11584352375547969642012-08-13T07:49:35.279-05:002012-08-13T07:49:35.279-05:00When President Harrison laments the
current state ...When President Harrison laments the<br />current state of preaching in the<br />LCMS, he is talking about CONTENT.<br />To have good content requires some<br />preparation and study of the text.<br />So our present preachers in the LCMS<br />need to put in more time as they<br />prepare their sermons. Evidently,<br />there are preachers just trying to<br />get by with the minimum of time in<br />their study.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com