tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post5775101506111755173..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Not imaginary. . .Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37302659468066806912019-03-18T15:48:51.641-05:002019-03-18T15:48:51.641-05:00It is fun to watch Strickert react like a Pavlovia...It is fun to watch Strickert react like a Pavlovian dog to all such posts. Has he nobody in his life he trusts to help him realize what a total jackass he always makes of himself? Apparently not. <br /><br />Sad. But cheap entertainment. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-86236031058085513832019-03-16T14:20:35.326-05:002019-03-16T14:20:35.326-05:00Regarding his Protestation Thesis 8. "The tru...Regarding his <i>Protestation</i> Thesis 8. "The true church, which we confess as the invisible church, is not to be superstitiously identified with the visible church," Dr. Carl Eduard Vehse wrote (trans. Fiehler, 1975): <br /><br />"In the Third Article of the Apostles' Creed we confess, 'I believe in the holy Christian church.' The true veritable church which we confess must be the invisible church, for it would be a contradiction to confess a visible church when faith is the evidence of things not seen.<br /><br />"Luther I, 444b, Jena ed. 'The church of Christ says, I believe in a holy Christian church. The muddled church of the pope says, I see a holy Christian church. The one says, the church is neither here nor there; the other says, the church is here and there.'<br /><br />"Luther I, 445, Jena ed. 'Christ says Matth. 14, that the gates of hell shall avail nothing against the rock and against the church that is built on the rock.... Since neither a specific person or city can be singled out against which the gates of hell may not prevail (in which there could be no sinners) it is clear enough that the holy Christian church may not be physically defined, but must be believed in and must remain a Spiritual city which the Spirit has established on Christ as the rock.'<br /><br />"To this true invisible church belong also individuals in various churches or congregations large and small, wherever in the world they may be, perhaps made up of only two or three who hold to outward confessions and have inner faith in Christ. It is therefore anomalous, though the expression is current, to speak of a true visible church. The true visible church is only a humanly political concept, referring to an external assembly of those who have the outwardly recognizable marks of the truth. For the true church is not visible, but invisible, believed in rather than seen. The evangelical-Lutheran church is called the true visible church, though within it true believers are comprehended together with hypocrites and godless persons in an external communion; thus the word 'true' relates only to outward evidences. Essentially, this true church in its full extent is invisible, and only the invisible church is actually the true church because more than any other church it holds to the external marks of the truth. With this church may stand also many other persons, not in outward association with her, who still have the true understanding of the evangelical-Lutheran church concerning Christ and also have faith in him. 'The Lord knoweth them that are his,' 2 Tim. 2:19. Only members of the invisible church are saved, for only they are in the inner communion of saving faith."Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6269826168830211132019-03-16T14:11:32.072-05:002019-03-16T14:11:32.072-05:00The sophistic wordplay accompanying a cutsy image)...The sophistic wordplay accompanying a cutsy image) concerning the "terms visible and invisible," "being made more of," and "explicitly found in the Lutheran Confessions" are deceiving, because the Lutheran Confessions (e.g., Ap.VII.5,13,16-20; SA.III.XII) clearly explain that the Church is originally a fellowship of faith and of the Holy Ghost in hearts (i.e., not visible)that the Church is kingdom of Christ which has not yet been revealed, that the Church is not imaginary, and that this Church, a congregation of saints, is and abides truly upon earth. <br /><br />And Martin Luther also explicitly explained that the Church was invisible, when he wrote (<i>Dr. Martin Luthers Saemmtliche Schriften</i> (St. Louis Ed., 1888, p. 1445): <br /><br />"<i>21. Gleichwie nun der Fels, der ohne Sünde ist, unsichtbar und geistlich ist: also muß auch die Kirche, die ohne Sünde ist, <b>unsichtbar</b> und geistlich sein, die man allein durch den Glauben begreift. Es ist je vonnöthen, daß der Grund Einer Art sei mit dem, das darauf gebaut ist; wie wir auch im Glauben sagen: „Ich glaube, daß Eine heilige christliche Kirche oder Gemeine in der ganzen Welt ist."</i>" <br /><br />(Now just as the rock, which is without sin, is invisible and spiritual, perceptible by faith alone, so also it is necessary that the church be without sin, <b>invisible</b> and spiritual, which one comprehends only by faith. It is necessary that the foundation be one with the structure, as we also say in faith, "I believe that there is one holy Christian church or congregation in the whole world.") <br /><br />Luther also praised God that even a child seven years old understands this meaning of "<i>eine heilige christliche Kirche</i>."<br /><br />As for those claiming to be Lutheran, but who sound like <i>closet Romanists</i>, here's what J.T. Muller had to say about them: "All who affirm that the Church is either wholly (papists) or partly (modern Lutheran theologians) visible destroy the Scriptural concept of the Church and change it from a communion of believers to an 'outward polity of the good and the wicked'."Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-39275504360443769072019-03-16T07:58:00.138-05:002019-03-16T07:58:00.138-05:00Like. And the later dogmaticians tried hard not to...Like. And the later dogmaticians tried hard not to let things fall into two:<br /><br />We do not hold that there are two churches, one true, real, and inner, the other nominal and outward, but we say that one and the same church, namely the whole assembly of the called is considered in two ways, namely inwardly and outwardly, or in respect to the call and outward fellowship consisting in profession of faith and use of the Sacraments, and in respect to inner regeneration and inner fellowship consisting in the bond of the Spirit. We grant that in the former way also hypocrites and unholy persons belong to the church, but we hold that in the latter way and respect only they who truly believe and are holy belong to it. -- Quenstedt, *The Church* p. 37<br /><br />Because the ministry of teaching the Word and administering the Sacraments strikes the senses, therefore the assembly of the called is called the visible church; but because it is not visible to human eyes who then the true believers and pious are in that assembly, therfore in respect to them the church is called invisible.—Quenstedt, *The Church* p. 18<br />William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.com