tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post5870541220514200372..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: What takes so long. . .Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-51129562289509166382013-06-03T14:01:25.021-05:002013-06-03T14:01:25.021-05:00I'm afraid you provide the evidence just below...<i>I'm afraid you provide the evidence just below this quote."</i><br /><br />Do not be afraid. It is only your imagination.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-50780864153688309372013-06-03T13:51:50.088-05:002013-06-03T13:51:50.088-05:00Why would you make such an unsubstantiated ad homi...<i>Why would you make such an unsubstantiated ad hominem accusation when there is no such evidence to support it? </i><br /><br />I'm afraid you provide the evidence just below this quote.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-18619889593714218932013-06-03T13:39:26.484-05:002013-06-03T13:39:26.484-05:00David Gray: You seem to struggle with the differen...David Gray: <i>You seem to struggle with the differentiation between a congregation and a communicant member.</i><br /> <br />Why would you make such an unsubstantiated <i>ad hominem</i> accusation when there is no such evidence to support it? I have been very clear in distinguishing between a congregation and a communicant member of a congregation.<br /><br />The Constitution of the Minnesota LCMS church is also clear on the requirements for "anyone" to "be a member of this congregation," as I previously shown from excerpts.<br /><br /><i>The LCMS itself only requires unconditional subscription to the Book of Concord from ministers and congregations</i><br /><br />No one is debating this. All individual and congregational members of the Missouri Synod are required to hold unconditional subscription to the Book of Concord. It is in the constitution of synodical churches where the requirements for becoming a communicant member of the congregation include submitting to the article concerning the congregation's confession of faith.<br /><br />If one claims a laymember of a congregation is not part of the congregation, then all laymembers of the congregation can be considered as not part of the congregation. So where is the congregation? Or is there a Loeheist answer waiting in the wings?!? ;-)Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-10938473837268890432013-06-03T12:17:29.198-05:002013-06-03T12:17:29.198-05:00You seem to struggle with the differentiation betw...You seem to struggle with the differentiation between a congregation and a communicant member. The LCMS itself only requires unconditional subscription to the Book of Concord from ministers and congregations.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-7347051301177227682013-06-03T11:58:03.720-05:002013-06-03T11:58:03.720-05:00"Communicant members are those baptized membe...<i>"Communicant members are those baptized members who... submit, for the sake of love and peace, to the regulations already made..."</i> <br /><br />Included in those "regulations already made," is Article III, of that <a href="http://www.goodshepherdmankato.org/about/constitution/index.html" rel="nofollow">Minnesota LCMS church's Constitution</a>, which states: <br /><br /><i>This congregation accepts and acknowledges: <br />a. The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the inspired and inerrant Word of God and the only rule and norm of faith and practice;<br />b. All the symbolic books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as contained in the Book of Concord of 1580, as the true, sound, and unadulterated statement and exhibition of Christian doctrine, to wit; The three Ecumenical Creeds (the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed); The Unaltered Augsburg Confession; The Apology of the Same; The Smalcald Articles; Luther's Small and Large Catechism; The Formula of Concord.</i> <br /><br />Thus, while the wording of this Minnesota LCMS church's Constitution is not identical with that in the <a href="http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1372" rel="nofollow">LCMS guidelines</a> for communicant membership, the church's communicant members do agree to "submit, for the sake of love and peace" to Article III, in which, as part of the congregation, they accept and acknowledge "all the symbolic books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as contained in the Book of Concord of 1580, as the true, sound, and unadulterated statement and exhibition of Christian doctrine".Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-24906058932458552722013-06-03T11:54:34.834-05:002013-06-03T11:54:34.834-05:00The quote in the June 1, 2013 at 10:50 AM post is ...The quote in the June 1, 2013 at 10:50 AM post is part of the answer to the BookofConcord webpage question, "What is an 'unconditional subscription' to the Confessions?"<br /> <br />That part of the answer is incorrect and contradicts the attached explanation given by C.F.W. Walther. It also contradicts the answer given to the subsequent question, "So what is it to be a Lutheran?"<br /><br />The BookofConcord website moderator has been notified of this error and a suggested correct answer.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-16230868755952841552013-06-01T10:58:35.356-05:002013-06-01T10:58:35.356-05:00This is from a Minnesota LCMS church:
Communicant...This is from a Minnesota LCMS church:<br /><br />Communicant members are those baptized members who accept all the canonical books of the Old and New Testaments as the only divine rule and standard of faith and conduct; are acquainted with, and accept Luther's Small Catechism; lead a Christian life and abstain from manifest works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19 21); attend divine services faithfully and partake of the Lord's Supper frequently; submit, for the sake of love and peace, to the regulations already made, or still to be made by this body, provided they do not conflict with the Word of God, and accept Scriptural admonition (Matthew 18:15 20) when having erred or offended; and are not a member of any secret or other organization conflicting with the Word of God, such as anti-Christian lodges. David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-67211248600019878372013-06-01T10:50:13.029-05:002013-06-01T10:50:13.029-05:00Carl,
Thanks, I found this part of the discussion...Carl,<br /><br />Thanks, I found this part of the discussion interesting:<br /><br />“Confessional Lutheran pastors are required to “subscribe” unconditionally to the Lutheran Confessions because they are a pure exposition of the Word of God. This is the way our pastors, and every layman who confesses his belief in the Small Catechism, is able with great joy and without reservation or qualification to say what it is that he believes to be the truth of God’s Word.”<br />- bookofconcord.org<br /><br />Apparently there is not consensus.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-5914765427451239392013-06-01T10:18:34.117-05:002013-06-01T10:18:34.117-05:00An additional explanation is provided on the BJS P...An additional explanation is provided on the <a href="http://steadfastlutherans.org/?p=30081&cpage=2#comment-828865" rel="nofollow">BJS Post #6, p. 2</a>. It includes the question asked of the confirmand, which is rearranged into two parts to show the points more clearly:<br /><br />1. Do you hold all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God? <br /><br />2. [A]s you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism, [do you] confess the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from [Holy Scriptures], to be faithful and true?<br /><br />If one were to apply the assessment of Lutheran instruction made by Martin Luther in the first two paragraphs of his <a href="http://www.bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#preface" rel="nofollow">Preface to the Small Catechism</a> to today's Lutheran instruction in catechism class (for youth and adults), it would be concerning teaching catechumens the names and brief summaries of the Lutheran Symbols to which they will confess to be faithful and true.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-22193408065395442292013-05-31T22:54:14.975-05:002013-05-31T22:54:14.975-05:00An interesting read:
http://www.worldvieweverlast...An interesting read:<br /><br />http://www.worldvieweverlasting.com/2013/05/30/a-lutheran-angle-on-anglicanism/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-35110984431067997772013-05-31T17:18:14.536-05:002013-05-31T17:18:14.536-05:00Carl,
Thank you for explaining your understanding...Carl,<br /><br />Thank you for explaining your understanding. I must confess if that was what was meant then it would be better to have written it in a different fashion. Our local LCMS pastor, a very confessional and older man, does not explain it the way that you do. I guess I'll leave it at that. David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6015940048962998702013-05-31T17:03:00.848-05:002013-05-31T17:03:00.848-05:00David Gray: I'm not looking to pick a fight bu...David Gray: <i>I'm not looking to pick a fight but they are only confessing the "doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church" which they have "learned to know it from the Small Catechism."</i> <br /><br />Let's look at the question. The independent clause, "as you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism," does not act to limit the extent of the question itself, "Do you... confess the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church... to be faithful and true?"<br /><br />The independent clause, "as you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism," maintains the unity of doctrine ("it"); the clause does not separate doctrine into doctrine from the Small Catechism and doctrine from other Lutheran Symbols. "It" is one doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from "the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures."<br /><br />What a confirmand vows to hold as faithful and true is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, not just part of the doctrine he may have read or memorized.<br /><br />Lutherans who join a Missouri Synod congregation make the same promise when they become communicant members. The constitution of a Missouri Synod congregation has words to the effect (from “<a href="http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1372" rel="nofollow">Guidelines for the Constitution and Bylaws of a Lutheran Congregation</a>”):<br /><br />“Communicant members are those baptized members who have been instructed and are familiar with the contents of Luther’s Small Catechism, have been confirmed in the Lutheran faith, and <b>accept the confessional standard</b> of Section ___ of this Constitution.” [Emphasis added] <br /><br />That confessional standard in the congregation’s constitution is the unconditional subscription to the doctrinal exposition of the Book of Concord.<br /><br />The interpretation that confirmands or new members are making some kind of conditional or limited (<i>quatenus</i>) subscription conflicts with the fact that the congregation itself (men, women, and baptized children and infants) of a LCMS church has publicly acknowledged their joint unconditional subscription to the Lutheran Confessions as stated in the church's constitution when that congregation joined and remains part of the Missouri Synod. <br /><br />Furthermore, it is not required for a valid unconditional subscription that the individual members of a Missouri Synod church read all of the Book of Concord of 1580, in the original German, or even some English translation. And it is not required that individual members of a Missouri Synod church compare the doctrine contained in the German Book of Concord of 1580 with all of the available Hebrew and Greek texts of the Old and New Testaments before affirming such an unconditional subscription. Inidividual member of a Missouri Synod church do not need to provide an evidence that they have read and compared all of these documents and texts before they are admitted as communicant members and receive the Lord's Supper.<br /><br />(Similarly, when one pledges alliegance to the United States, one has not studied and understood every law of the land.)<br /><br />Unless the Lutheran member publicly states or acts to the contrary we should let the public "I do" of each confirmand and each person becoming a communicant member be the answer they give before God and the congregation. And the pastor and others in the congregation witnessing such an public affirmation should continue in their committment to help in the further training of those members to grow in the understanding of the confession of the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church to which they have unconditionally subscribed.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-28719304740464460882013-05-31T14:40:02.276-05:002013-05-31T14:40:02.276-05:00Dear Dr. D,
May Our Lord Bless You and Keep You. ...Dear Dr. D,<br /><br />May Our Lord Bless You and Keep You. May Our Lord bring You Discernment. I forgive you. I pray you grow in the knowledge of Holy Scripture. An old Anglican Priest I know would always face the Alter and recite the following:<br /><br /><br />Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart<br /> be acceptable in your sight,<br /> O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.<br /><br />I ask your forgiveness for any offense I may have caused.<br /><br />John Mark IXOYCMarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06451006250044197366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-28473239055058801182013-05-31T14:36:26.185-05:002013-05-31T14:36:26.185-05:00Carl,
I'm not looking to pick a fight but the...Carl,<br /><br />I'm not looking to pick a fight but they are only confessing the "doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church" which they have "learned to know it from the Small Catechism." There are many elements of the Book of Concord which are not addressed or contained in the Small Catechism and I don't see how that vow commits someone to any doctrine they haven't learned from the Small Catechism.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-82406955247290589632013-05-31T14:14:42.243-05:002013-05-31T14:14:42.243-05:00David Gray: "Don't the vows require agree...David Gray: <i>"Don't the vows require agreement with the Small Catechism rather than the entire Book of Concord?"</i> <br /><br />That claim might be true <b>IF</b> the question addressed to confirmands were:<br /> <br />"Do you hold all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God and confess those specific articles of doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, which you have learned to know from the Small Catechism, to be faithful and true?" <br /><br />But in fact, the confirmands are asked:<br /><br />"Do you hold all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God and confess the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from them, as you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism, to be faithful and true?"<br /><br />The doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church is contained in the Book of Concord.<br /><br />One might as well frivolously argue that because some confirmands may not have read the entire Bible (much less in the original Greek and Hebrew texts), that confirmands should only vow to hold "all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures <b>they have actually read</b> to be the inspired Word of God."Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-82221421830425677172013-05-31T12:27:21.809-05:002013-05-31T12:27:21.809-05:00Carl,
Don't the vows require agreement with t...Carl,<br /><br />Don't the vows require agreement with the Small Catechism rather than the entire Book of Concord?David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-22545038161435191332013-05-31T12:03:59.555-05:002013-05-31T12:03:59.555-05:00Since the time of my last previous post, I have ha...Since the time of my last previous post, I have had another face-to-face encounter with Jesus Christ, my Saviour. I have just said my regular Friday morning Mass. In it, I was reminded of my need to repent, to seek forgiveness, to admit my sins.<br /><br />Therefore, at this point, I want to ask forgiveness from Carl, Mark, Pastor Peters, and any others whom I may have offended in my previous remarks. I am a sinner, in need of forgiveness, prayer, and salvation, just like any other person.<br /><br />I am about to leave this thread; my intent is that this will be my final post. I want to leave you with two parts of the Mass that I have just finished; these are common to almost all Masses that I say.<br /><br />The first is a prayer known as the Prayer for the Unity of Christ's Church. It is said very shortly before the distribution of the Holy Communion. The second is the known among Anglicans and Roman Catholics as the Last Gospel. It consists of the opening words of the Gospel of John, recited at the very end of the Mass following the dismissal.<br /><br />The Prayer for the Unity of Christ's Church<br /><br />O Lord Jesus Christ, who saidst to thine Apostles, Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: regard my sins but the faith of thy Church; and grant to it that peace and unity which is according to thy will. Who livest and reignst God, world without end. Amen.<br /><br />The Last Gospel<br /><br />John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.<br /><br />May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ infuse His whole Church, and never let the efforts of mere men seek to separate us from Him in any way. Jesus Christ is all that matters, and we must each come to Him in Spirit and in Truth in whatever way we are best able to do so.<br /><br />Fr. D+<br />Anglican PriestDr.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360786634583725263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-33136196657196576262013-05-31T11:24:24.994-05:002013-05-31T11:24:24.994-05:00Dr. D.: "Any answers that I gave at my Luther...Dr. D.: <i>"Any answers that I gave at my Lutheran confirmation were predicated on the Lutheran Church remaining constant in the faith."</i><br /><br />The Evangelical Lutheran Church has remain constant in the catholic faith. The answer of a confirmand is predicated on all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures being the inspired Word of God and the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from the Book of Concord, being a faithful and true exposition.<br /><br />The answer is not predicated on whether some individual Lutheran pastors, congregations or members remain true to the Lutheran Confessions or betray their own vows. <br /><br />Dr. D, you did not betray your vow to the confession of the Lutheran Church because of what some other person or some other people did or failed to do with their vows. Blaming the failure of others for what you decided to do with your vow is pathetic. You betrayed your vow before God because you no longer (if ever) believed the Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church to be a faithful and true confession.<br /><br /><i>"It seems that you are thereby making all of these additional "Symbolical Books" equal to, and thus included with, Holy Scripture. Isn't that explicitly forbidden in Scripture?"</i> <br /><br />It is also explicitly forbidden in the Lutheran Confessions (FC.Rule and Norm.2): <br /><br />"First, then, we receive and embrace with our whole heart the Prophetic and Apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel, which is the only true standard by which all teachers and doctrines are to be judged."Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-14804418458822642992013-05-31T10:08:40.575-05:002013-05-31T10:08:40.575-05:00Oh, and by the way, Carl, when you say:
However,...Oh, and by the way, Carl, when you say:<br /><br /> However, all the Symbolical Books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church are accepted by Lutherans as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God.<br /><br />It seems that you are thereby making all of these additional "Symbolical Books" equal to, and thus included with, Holy Scripture. Isn't that explicitly forbidden in Scripture?Dr.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360786634583725263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-29345230724922424492013-05-31T10:03:59.260-05:002013-05-31T10:03:59.260-05:00Let me speak to Mark first. It has been so many ye...Let me speak to Mark first. It has been so many years now that I do not remember the details of exactly what I did with regard to Pastor Special. You can be assured, however, that after working diligently for several years to raise a mission congregation from scratch, where I did much of the work myself, I certainly did not just sit back and laugh at him and watch it fall down. When my family left that congregation, we did it quietly, without fanfare or nasty words to anyone. We had simply had all we could take. If others were still happy with him, we were not going to make waves for them.<br /><br />Now regarding "Carl's adroit" handling of my leaving the LCMS. Any answers that I gave at my Lutheran confirmation were predicated on the Lutheran Church remaining constant in the faith. Look around you; has it done that? I would say it has not. I am far more concerned with being faithful to Christ and worshiping Him properly than I am to any human organization. I am not in the least bit embarrassed about leaving the Lutheran Church. I went where I could worship Jesus Christ in the the best possible way as I understand it, and nothing else is of any consequence at all.<br /><br />Carl, your comments reflect the legalism, the pharisical approach particularly common to the LCMS. You would bind people to words said in the past, not letting them be free to change with changing circumstances in the church and their own knowledge of Christ.<br /><br />If we are going to get nasty about it, as Carl already has, calling my solemn word "worthless," I would have to say that the inconstant, wavering, and changeable Lutheran Church proved itself to be worthless to me. I left for Continuing Anglicanism, where the faith is the same today as it has been in ages past. One thing I did learn in the Lutheran Church is that Jesus Christ is more important than any human institution, and He sets us free!<br /><br />Fr. D+<br />Anglican PriestDr.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360786634583725263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-38702545332479482432013-05-31T09:53:51.944-05:002013-05-31T09:53:51.944-05:00Factually, the concept of clergy and laity did exi...Factually, the concept of clergy and laity <b>did exist</b> in the original church, although not in the same structure as today within the Missouri Synod, or even within the structure existing at the time of the Lutheran Reformation.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-2166060470577604832013-05-31T08:37:49.108-05:002013-05-31T08:37:49.108-05:00Oddly enough, the whole idea of clergy and laity d...Oddly enough, the whole idea of clergy and laity did not exist in original church...Jake the Evil Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05249511725379937971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-19177835995622665212013-05-31T07:48:49.312-05:002013-05-31T07:48:49.312-05:00Dear Dr. D,
Jumping back to your first comment, d...Dear Dr. D,<br /><br />Jumping back to your first comment, did you go in private to Pastor Special by appointment equipped with a lengthy list of examples and have a Broth in Christ discussion with him or did you sit back and laugh with your kids?<br /><br />I have had two examples of doing what I suggest. The first Pastor listened Io me, agreed I was correct, and made it very clear my involvement was not welcomed. A second Pastor and I went toe to toe I called him a sinner! And a meanie! His response "YEP". We are fast friends and he after prayerfully considering my input reconsidered. If you never went and talked to your mission Pastor you are guilty of the greater sin.<br /><br />Addressing your leaving the LCMS.... Carl has dealt very adroitly there! You would do well to stop now before you embarrass yourself more. Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06451006250044197366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-50392606599837673472013-05-30T21:52:22.401-05:002013-05-30T21:52:22.401-05:00Dr. D,
First you slander the writers of Lutheran ...Dr. D,<br /><br />First you slander the writers of Lutheran Symbols; now you toss a few <i>ad hominems</i> my way:<br /><br /><i>"this matter seems to really stir up your bile!"</i><br /><i>"It may come as a shock to you"</i><br /><i>"it has certainly raised your blood pressure"</i><br /><i>"Not all are nearly as narrow as you are"</i><br /><br />Those are childish retorts for my explaining why the statement, "the pope is the Antichrist" is not a "stretch, but part of the Lutheran Confessions held by the Lutheran Church in the 16th century and still up through today. <br /><br />As for your claim, "Luther, Melanchthon, the Elector, etc. were still just men, not prophets, not angels. They were just as capable of error and you and I are," No one is arguing that they were not capable of error. However, all the Symbolical Books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church are accepted by Lutherans as a true and unadulterated statement and exposition of the Word of God.<br /><br />You claim, <i>"I left the LCMS because they could not seem to hold fast to what they believed."</i> Yet you yourself also have rejected these Lutheran Confessions, which is the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.<br /><br />At your Lutheran confirmation, when you were asked, "Do you hold all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God and confess the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from them, as you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism, to be faithful and true?", you answered, "I do." <br /><br />When you were asked, "Do you intend to continue steadfast in this confession and Church and to suffer all, even death, rather than fall away from it?", you answered, "I do, by the grace of God." <br /><br />Your solemn word to continue steadfast in the Lutheran Confessions appears to have been worthless.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6930717786389672562013-05-30T16:09:42.489-05:002013-05-30T16:09:42.489-05:00Thank you for sharing how you left Lutheranism. H...Thank you for sharing how you left Lutheranism. How many others have left for the same reasons you provided. Do Lutheran denominations have a future. I see too much infighting within the LCMS for that denomination to be effective. The greatest enemies of Lutheranism are Lutherans themselves. Lack of consensus prevents confessional Lutheranism from growing and thriving.<br /><br />I delight not in the problems of other Christians, but in the failed efforts of "progressive" theologians.<br /><br />Liberal theology is destroying these denominations:<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/b3a2p4s<br /><br />Thankfully, conservative congregations will rise from the ashes strengthened and renewed. "Still attending Grandpa's church"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com