tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post7987350085171786832..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Thoughts on Lutheranism on the occasion of a Lutheran leaving. . .Pastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-63884155819034585212014-04-25T16:57:26.911-05:002014-04-25T16:57:26.911-05:00In all honesty, I think the chances of orthodox Ev...In all honesty, I think the chances of orthodox Evangelical Catholics (Lutherans) and Roman Catholics reuniting are slim to none...unless the orthodox Churches come under intense persecution. At that point, we may decide that we are better off together, even with our differences.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-19568066902482709562014-04-24T16:55:54.386-05:002014-04-24T16:55:54.386-05:00Norm,
Pope Benedict, then Cardinal Ratzinger, st...Norm, <br /><br />Pope Benedict, then Cardinal Ratzinger, stated that the Augsburg Confession is an essentially catholic confession. Unfortunately, for all his quite exceptional qualities, Benedict's theology and ecumenical inclinations (here most importantly his sympathy for confessional Lutherans) shifted markedly when he assumed the office of the anti-Christ. Go figure. <br /><br />Benedict also has been very forthright about the papacy as the main obstacle to ecumenical work with all communions. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-30923831465906906162014-04-24T13:03:01.451-05:002014-04-24T13:03:01.451-05:00Gary,
The Vatican is clearly willing to consider ...Gary,<br /><br />The Vatican is clearly willing to consider the establishment of ordinariates for groups who come to the Catholic Church from various Protestant denominations that have their own distinct customs of <i>liturgical</i> worship. The Lutheran tradition clearly is a likely candidate.<br /><br />That said, the Vatican is very strict about doctrinal orthodoxy. One cannot come into the Catholic Church without accepting <i>the whole</i> of Catholic doctrine, the best compendium of which is the <i>Catechism of the Catholic Church</i>. The apostolic constitution <i>Anglicanorum coetibus</i> stipulates explicitly that ALL ordinariates established thereunder must adhere to the <i>Catechism of the Catholic Church</i> as a doctrinal reference point. And in 2009, Pope Benedict XVI promulgated the <i>motu proprio</i> <i>Ecclesiae unitatem</i> in which he said explicitly that the reconciliation of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) requires resolution of the doctrinal issues that now stand in the way. The author of the OP is quite right: the Catholic Church does NOT compromise doctrine!<br /><br />As a Catholic Christian, I have no familiarity whatsoever with the <i>Book of Concord</i> so I cannot say how much of it is compatible with Catholic doctrine and how much is not. But in any case, you can be certain that any ordinariate for those who come to the Catholic Church from Lutheran bodies will not ascribe to whatever in the <i>Book of Concord</i> is not compatible with Catholic doctrine.<br /><br />Norm.<br />Rev22:17noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-83082226139769593502014-04-23T08:44:16.415-05:002014-04-23T08:44:16.415-05:00Again, when there are only Lufauxran, but no real ...Again, when there are only Lufauxran, but no real Lutheran, churches around, one Lutheran answer is in the book, <a href="http://www.lutherquest.org/walther/articles/-400/jmc00240.htm" rel="nofollow">How To Start Or Keep Your Own Missouri Synod Lutheran Church</a> by Rev. Jack Cascione.<br /><br />Exceptions might be if you are living in a city called Sodom or Gomorrah.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-10770509859199123002014-04-23T06:31:13.180-05:002014-04-23T06:31:13.180-05:00I, as a layman, am not a member of a synod. The c...I, as a layman, am not a member of a synod. The congregation to which I belong, and its pastor are members of the LCMS. I am a member of the congregation because it and its pastor ARE confessional/liturgical. Further, I am fortunate to live in the Twin Cities metropolitan area, where I have the choice of many confessional/liturgical congregations over multiple circuits. I can only imagine what it must be like to live in an area where a circuit is spread over many counties, and a confessional/liturgical congregation is too far away to even consider attending. <br /><br />When shepherds and/or flocks choose to ignore/reject their vows and commitments, that is their choice. I'm able to just walk away and find another confessional/liturgical LCMS congregation in my area. I don't know what I'd do if Imwere in an area where I'd have no such choice. Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07186384126211612393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-6599402187696529372014-04-22T19:45:03.621-05:002014-04-22T19:45:03.621-05:00Thank you for your comments, James.
In brief, her...Thank you for your comments, James.<br /><br />In brief, here is my story: I grew up fundamentalist Baptist. In my twenties I attended a (Baptistic) non-denom. evangelical church. In my late twenties I became a liberal and joined the ELCA. I attended church maybe two or three times a year for the next 10-15 years. <br /><br />I then married a Roman Catholic. Neither of us were big church goers at that time, but we chose to attend the local Episcopal church as a compromise where we both could take communion.<br /><br />Then I became a father...and everything changed. I was no longer just responsible for my eternal destination, I was responsible for two beautiful little children. One Sunday in the Episcopal church, one of the gay associate pastors talked about God using the pronoun "she". That was the last straw for me. I did not want to bring my children up in that environment. I realized I could not bring them up in liberal Christianity where anything goes, and the Church believes nothing in particular, other than the Golden Rule.<br /><br />I attended the local LCMS church. The preaching was great, but no communion that Sunday as they only had communion every other Sunday. There was some liturgy, but not a lot. No crucifix, no kneeling, and again, no Sacrament for the nourishment of my soul and the forgiveness of my sins, which I want and need EVERY week!<br /><br />I was accustomed to receiving the Sacrament every Sunday, so we passed on the LCMS church and attended the local conservative Anglo-Catholic church. Great liturgy, conservative on social issues, good preaching, nice people...but MAJOR emphasis on the Virgin Mary, much more so than the typical American Roman Catholic Church. The Hail Mary is said during every mass.<br /><br />So as long as I held my nose while they said the Hail Mary, I was happy.<br /><br />The wonderful priest left so I decided to check out the LCMS Lutheran church again as I missed (high church) Lutheranism and the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone.<br /><br />We visited the same church we had several years prior, and they had a new pastor! They had Holy Communion every service, and they used the liturgy, the beautiful old hymns, and were very high church (even incense!!). I love it and feel right at home.<br /><br />However, my LCMS church is the black sheep of the local LCMS parishes. We are the "Catholics". If my pastor were to leave, we would probably revert to a pseudo-evangelical church like all the other LCMS churches in the area...and I would leave to return to the Anglo-Catholic church...holding my nose during the Hail Mary.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-71311100110854833612014-04-22T19:04:44.659-05:002014-04-22T19:04:44.659-05:00Gary,
I was LCMS but now attend a Continuing Angl...Gary,<br /><br />I was LCMS but now attend a Continuing Anglican parish (Anglican Province of America). I get a consistent, reverent liturgy; weekly communion; vestments; creed and benediction; recognition of the church calendar, etc. Why drive an hour to the nearest LCMS parish that practices anything close to the historic Lutheran liturgy when I can drive 4 miles to attend a Continuing Anglican church. The Continuing Anglican churches have problems as well, but for me they are not as deep as the divide within the LCMS. I've made my decision. <br /><br />Unlike the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA), the Anglican Catholic church, Anglican Province of America and several other Continuing Anglican churches DO NOT accept woman clergy and are not part of the ACNA. <br /><br />It's sad that you are even considering leaving the LCMS. But it's a reality for many faithful, traditional Lutherans. I wish you well.<br /><br />JamesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-42460530591418492352014-04-22T18:04:28.796-05:002014-04-22T18:04:28.796-05:00I remember talking to my priest about Luther. I e...I remember talking to my priest about Luther. I explained he was once a monk but then he married. My priest's first comment was, "You mean he broke his vows?" And he seemed quite saddened by that. I would think breaking one's vows for the sake of conscience would be something a Lutheran could support? (Even if one doesn't agree with the ultimate decison.)Dixiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08511317203353075644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-59313217822507467752014-04-22T17:09:54.811-05:002014-04-22T17:09:54.811-05:00But you do admit that you belong to a heterodox Ch...<i>But you do admit that you belong to a heterodox Church, right?</i> <br /><br />No, I didn't said that. You said that, even though it isn't true. <br /><br /><i>So my "sin" of not believing that the current pope is the Anti-Christ and your sin of belonging to a heterodox Church, negates us both being able to claim we are faithful, confessional Lutherans.</i><br /><br />That's just malarky. Your sin of disavowing your subscription to the Lutheran Confessions stands by itself. It is not negated by anything else.<br /><br /><i>I consider liturgy to be just as important to my choice of church/Church as doctrine</i><br /><br />This is where your confusion exist about liturgy. In his article, "Grabau and the Saxon Pastors: The Doctrine of the Holy Ministry, 1840-1845" (<i>Concordia Historical Institute Quarterly</i>, 62, 1995, p. 93), Rev. William Cwirla stated the distinction:<br /><br />"We might summarize the liturgical distinction between the parties in this way: Grabau worked in the direction <i>lex orandi lex credendi</i> (what is prayed is confessed); the Saxons worked it the other way, <i>lex credendi lex orandi</i> (what is confessed is prayed)."Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-75172229212727577942014-04-22T16:49:50.170-05:002014-04-22T16:49:50.170-05:00True, very true.
But you do admit that you belong...True, very true.<br /><br />But you do admit that you belong to a heterodox Church, right? So my "sin" of not believing that the current pope is the Anti-Christ and your sin of belonging to a heterodox Church, negates us both being able to claim we are faithful, confessional Lutherans.<br /><br />I consider liturgy to be just as important to my choice of church/Church as doctrine. I would pick an orthodox Anglo-Catholic church over a pseudo-evangelical, Lutheran-in-doctrine-only church, any day of the week.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-54220505872655964352014-04-22T16:35:57.238-05:002014-04-22T16:35:57.238-05:00I attend St. Paul Lutheran Church-Austin (mentione...I attend St. Paul Lutheran Church-Austin (mentioned earlier), which has been a confessional Lutheran church with a Lutheran liturgy and Lutheran music as long as I've been there. If it was a Seminex-style church in the late 70s, it hasn't been one for a long, long time. Churches can change, for better or worse, and so can a Synod. Changing them for the better means lots of work.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-69417604780629298282014-04-22T16:03:43.996-05:002014-04-22T16:03:43.996-05:00I hear you, Richard.
But if you feel that way, wh...I hear you, Richard.<br /><br />But if you feel that way, why do you belong to a Lutheran Synod where 70% of the parishes worship no differently than the evangelicals? Are you saying that liturgy is not part of our Confessions? That liturgy is adiaphora?<br /><br />Why haven't you started your own Synod, Richard? The current Synod of which you are a member is heterodox...FauxLutheran, as you like to say, at least as practiced by the majority within the Synod.<br /><br />By your own standards, are you sinning by participating in a heterodox Church?Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-80509361784708849852014-04-22T15:05:27.788-05:002014-04-22T15:05:27.788-05:00"Do you hold all the prophetic and apostolic ...<i>"Do you hold all the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures to be the inspired Word of God and confess the doctrine of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, drawn from them, as you have learned to know it from the Small Catechism, to be faithful and true?"</i><br /><br />"I do."<br /><br /><i>"Do you intend to continue steadfast in this confession and Church and to suffer all, even death, rather than fall away from it?"</i><br /><br />"Call me lazy, but too much work."Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-52589843368618736632014-04-22T14:44:45.537-05:002014-04-22T14:44:45.537-05:00No, I'm not interested in starting my own chur...No, I'm not interested in starting my own church. Call me lazy, but too much work.<br /><br />If my LCMS parish joins the evangelical bandwagon I will go to the Anglo-Catholic parish down the street. I would consider the Orthodox Church, but since I'm not Russian, Greek, or Serbian, I'm not sure I would feel "home" there. I've heard the "non-ethnics" get treated as outsiders in the Orthodox Churches.<br /><br />No church is perfect, but I grew up evangelical and I burned out on the emotion-based spirituality. I have no intention of ever getting back on that roller-coaster, even if it has the word "Lutheran" on it.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-57675706000386951992014-04-22T13:08:28.338-05:002014-04-22T13:08:28.338-05:00Gary: "If my church joins the evangelical ban...Gary: <i>"If my church joins the evangelical band wagon, I will be headed out the door to the local Anglo-Catholic church."</i><br /><br />One should certainly leave a church that has become Lufauxran. But to what? The ACNA? They have pastrixes. That's no more a real Lutheran answer than the one Joshua Genig gave. <br /><br />If there are no other real Lutheran churches around, one Lutheran answer is in the book, <a href="http://www.lutherquest.org/walther/articles/-400/jmc00240.htm" rel="nofollow"><i>How To Start Or Keep Your Own Missouri Synod Lutheran Church</i></a> by Rev. Jack Cascione.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-74103781527114141862014-04-22T12:37:47.438-05:002014-04-22T12:37:47.438-05:00"As for Lutheran pastors and congregations le..."As for Lutheran pastors and congregations leaving the Missouri Synod to the Lufauxran methobapticostals, it would be only after the Lufauxrans are left with nothing but smoldering ashes and cinders."<br /><br />Would you explain that statement, Richard. I'm not following.<br /><br />The largest LCMS church in my area has two worship services. I have attended both. The "traditional" service uses an organ, sings hymns, and the pastor wears a plain white vestment. They say the Apostles Creed but other than that they do not follow the liturgy. No Confession and Absolution, etc.. They only offer the Sacrament a couple times a month. It feels like an evangelical service for the elderly.<br /><br />The other service is held in the gymnasium, with a praise band with guitars, drums and backup singers, a large projection screen, and the same pastor in street clothes. There is nothing distinctively Lutheran in this service whatsoever.<br /><br />From what I hear, this is what the majority of the LCMS churches in my metropolitan city area do. I am pretty sure that my LCMS church is the only "high Lutheran" church in the entire county.<br /><br />If my church joins the evangelical band wagon, I will be headed out the door to the local Anglo-Catholic church.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37493918620969858542014-04-22T12:33:00.825-05:002014-04-22T12:33:00.825-05:00It fascinates me that one can betray vows to two t...It fascinates me that one can betray vows to two things that no Lutheran considers to be sacraments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-40979952243524874732014-04-22T12:21:57.698-05:002014-04-22T12:21:57.698-05:00We won't know until we express in writing our ...We won't know until we express in writing our position to the Vatican. As stated above by the Vatican, Lutherans would have to initiate this idea before the Vatican would act on it.<br /><br />I say, "throw it out there and see what they do with it."<br /><br />If they want to force us to accept the Council of Trent, we say, "absolutely not", and walk away.<br /><br />Does the Eastern Orthodox Church have ordinariates?<br /><br />Unless something dramatic happens in the LCMS we soon will be just another flavor of evangelicalism with praise bands, back up singers, light and sound effects with smoke machines, and pastors in blue jeans sitting on a bar stool preaching a generic gospel, on a stage void of an altar and crucifix.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-11795869823552133062014-04-22T12:15:09.910-05:002014-04-22T12:15:09.910-05:00So the pseudo-evangelical majority in the LCMS is ...<i>So the pseudo-evangelical majority in the LCMS is not going to discipline district presidents who practice "methobapticostal" evangelical worship, just as they do.</i><br /><br />It's the synodical president who has the authority and responsibility to suspend DPs.<br /><br />As for Lutheran pastors and congregations leaving the Missouri Synod to the Lufauxran methobapticostals, it would be only after the Lufauxrans are left with nothing but smoldering ashes and cinders.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-65843211306256180512014-04-22T12:05:35.487-05:002014-04-22T12:05:35.487-05:00Gary,
Why would Rome agree to that? Gary,<br /><br />Why would Rome agree to that? David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-81431024939824321772014-04-22T12:01:25.934-05:002014-04-22T12:01:25.934-05:00For once, Richard (Carl), I agree with you, but th...For once, Richard (Carl), I agree with you, but the problem is, the majority of the LCMS is now pseudo-evangelical. So the pseudo-evangelical majority in the LCMS is not going to discipline district presidents who practice "methobapticostal" evangelical worship, just as they do.<br /><br />Again, we the minority, the liturgical, will have to leave the LCMS.<br /><br />But where do we go? Do we form ANOTHER Lutheran body or do we join the largest orthodox, liturgical Christian Church in the world but with the following conditions: insistence that we have a separate Ordinariate with our own head bishop, elected by us and not Rome, that our doctrine is not to be tampered with, the Book of Concord will be our Statement of Faith, not the Council of Trent, and that we can leave the Catholic Church anytime we feel our autonomy is threatened.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-63646369760592373312014-04-22T11:56:16.044-05:002014-04-22T11:56:16.044-05:00>>I say an ordinariate in the Catholic Churc...>>I say an ordinariate in the Catholic Church with our Book of Concord, is our best option. <br /><br />It is hard to see how they would permit that without recanting the anathemas of the Council of Trent. Which they cannot do.David Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11966977894876326659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-76372875431225155072014-04-22T11:52:54.556-05:002014-04-22T11:52:54.556-05:00Those pastors and congregations that conduct metho...Those pastors and congregations that conduct <i>methobapticostal</i> services need to be told by their district presidents to conduct Lutheran worship services or, per Art. XIII, they will be suspended and removed from synod membership. District president, and their replacements, who fail to do this need to be suspended and eventually removed from synod membership.<br /><br />Oh wait, I forgot... the Missouri Synod gave up ecclesiastical supervision for the <i>Koinonia</i> Project.Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-16999045572742577592014-04-22T11:33:09.827-05:002014-04-22T11:33:09.827-05:00I think something must be done to stem the tide of...I think something must be done to stem the tide of evangelical worship-style in our churches. However, what can be done when 75% of LCMS parishes use evangelical-style contemporary worship?<br /><br />The majority of LCMS churches in my area are more evangelical than Lutheran. When these Lutherans come to my church they audibly gasp at our "catholicity".<br /><br />I predict within a generation this 75% of the LCMS will drop the name Lutheran above their church door, and become, "The Rock Church" or something hip like that.<br /><br />It is we liturgical, now the minority in the Synod, that are going to have to make the tough choice to leave.<br /><br />I say an ordinariate in the Catholic Church with our Book of Concord, is our best option.Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02519721717265344702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-19193560793861460762014-04-22T11:31:04.883-05:002014-04-22T11:31:04.883-05:00Gary (April 22, 2014 at 11:17 AM): "I for one...Gary (April 22, 2014 at 11:17 AM): <i>"I for one would insist that we be allowed to keep the Book of Concord in its entirety except for one article: that the office of the papacy is the Anti-Christ. At one time it was. I don't think it is any longer."</i><br /><br />The Evangelical Lutheran Church, its pastors and congregations accept without reservation that the Lutheran Symbols, which state that the pope is the very Antichrist, are a true and faithful statement and exposition of the Word of God. <br /><br />LMMV (Lufauxran mileage may vary)Carl Vehsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00348831096001668813noreply@blogger.com