tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post8867527116719528211..comments2024-03-27T15:47:46.091-05:00Comments on Pastoral Meanderings: Former Lutherans Outnumber the Active OnesPastor Petershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10653554256101480140noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-58516469965615622442015-11-22T21:17:43.582-06:002015-11-22T21:17:43.582-06:00"I am a poor miserable sinner deserving nothi..."I am a poor miserable sinner deserving nothing but temporal and eternal punishment."<br /><br />I can't see why anyone would want to get away from that. :-)Kurt Poeppelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00513976460865080962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-89688431950630959752015-07-07T07:10:32.144-05:002015-07-07T07:10:32.144-05:00I agree with Desert Rat. I'll say the reason w...I agree with Desert Rat. I'll say the reason why I stuck around for starters as the thoughtful in depth care taken by the teaching at the little LCMS church in Odessa, WA that I went to. Our pastor tried hard to make sure we understood what was being taught in confirmation and I've had the fortune of having good adult bible study classes there and since. Not classes that repeat verbatim from a small booklet but ones who's leaders take the time to prepare the material before Sunday morning and are good enough teachers to know they need to be prepared to field our questions. As the onslaught of our society came at me, these little retreats of God's word have helped keep my faith intact thereby keeping me coming back. Like Penny there, for me the music doesn't mean anywhere near as much as the content although I am quite partial to the articles of faith. <br /><br />I have one question for Mr. Wuensche, when the man you ran into told you he was a former Lutheran did you ask him why he left? Taking the time to find these reasons why rather than speculate on culture I think would help our cause. Having the compassion to approach, ask and listen is of the utmost importance for this situation. <br /><br />Lastly I'm going to quote John Warwick Montgomery, the Lutheran apologist. I've heard him say one of the worst thing to happen to a church is that it becomes a cultural phenomenon. I have much respect for the German founders of our church but they didn't found it because they were German, it was because they were Spreading God's word. I've sat in coffee hours where I've seen the uncomfortable eyes of new members(Italian, East Indian, and other) dart around the room as the Good German roots discussions take over. I think it's something we need to be careful with. Thank you for writing the article.Jordonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17067857719286886405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-82857064824499897842014-10-12T19:44:53.932-05:002014-10-12T19:44:53.932-05:00Consider that many have left because they have iss...Consider that many have left because they have issue with the LCMS articles of faith no matter what style of worship the LCMS offers.Penny dreadfulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11282111950287918238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-81552566246891836712013-12-08T13:45:45.332-06:002013-12-08T13:45:45.332-06:00Funny but no one mentioned that a person might lea...Funny but no one mentioned that a person might leave grow in the Scriptures. That the sermons are always on the Synoptic Gospels and more emphasis was on Lutheran authors than on studying the Bible. That's why I left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-74199439713582968632013-05-14T11:23:36.388-05:002013-05-14T11:23:36.388-05:00"I can only think of a couple of reasons.... ..."I can only think of a couple of reasons.... a lack of catechesis and the failure to believe what it is that we confess and teach."<br /><br />Sooner or later, Lutherans will work out this that reasoning is not the right one. It is often repeated as a mantra to "save" Lutheranism but it doesn't seem to actually work. There's plenty of catechized faithful who still leave the Lutheran Churches. <br /><br />The answer is relationship, spiritual growth and finding meaning in God- spiritual formation. These are the things that Pietist movement aimed for, never intending to be at the expense of orthodoxy. <br /><br />Lutherans need to again find their heart for God, not just get their doctrine right. I ought to know, being an orthodox Lutheran seminarian almost destroyed my faith completely. Right belief just isn't enough. You need to be on fire for and in love with God, and this is a work of the Spirit, nothing more. <br /><br />I think Spener was right.<br /><br />* Rev. H. Parish PriestAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-31758266801629435442012-10-14T18:45:25.216-05:002012-10-14T18:45:25.216-05:00This was a very telling article by the Pastor. I h...This was a very telling article by the Pastor. I had no idea that the Lutheran "drop-out" rate was that rampant. <br />A little about my relationship with Lutheranism: I was a Lutheran for several years and received my higher education through the LC-MS system. I was studying to be a Lutheran Pastor in the LC-MS through Concordia Seminary. I was Lutheran for about 10 years before I officially left. I would say that my Faith in Lutheran Doctrine/Theology began to erode after about 3-4 years into it. I wanted my belief system to be consistent and certain. I started to perceive problems in the Lutheran interpretation and overall dogmatic system which served as some of the bases for my departure from Lutheranism. <br /><br />What strikes me about this article is that it doesn't really consider that the problem might be in Lutheranism itself-- in its Theology/Doctrine. Is Sola Scriptura really that reliable? Are we really justified by faith alone? Is prayer to saints really idolatry? Should we emphasize personal faith as clinging to the Promises of Christ and not His Person? Is Amillenialism the way to go? Isn't it a little quick to ignore texts that place Israel in a future role before the end of history (cf. Rom. 11:25; Acts 1:8ff)? How about the doctrine of Judgment and Hell? Is it truly just to send unbelievers to ETERNAL damnation?!? How come Hell is not in the Old Testament? Some of you will say it is in the Aramaic, Sheol. But they are not the same. Virtually all of Judaism believes that Sheol is a state of death; the realm of the after-life that does not involve eternal punishment. If Hell is not in the Old Testament, then that suggests some real questions and problems pertaining to God, the Bible, and the Religion as a whole. What kind of God or Religion would not warn people of eternal perdition for over 1 Millenium?!?<br />I can take a wild guess as to why people are bailing out of Lutheranism. We are living in a time of dramatic re-interpretation. People are re-interpreting the major infrastructures of Life: Medicine, Media, Politics, Education and of course Religion. We are finding out more and more the flaws and failures to all these institutions. People are preferring Private and Home Education to Public Ed. People are decreasingly tuning into popular media (NBC; MSNBC; CNN) and turning to localized alternative Media. People are tired of the 2 Party System and prefer a Third Variable. We are finding out more and more about the greedy schemes behind Pharmaceuticals and Medicine; and conversely learning that we can take care of ourselves through proper diet and natural medicine. The reinterpretation goes on and on. People are waking up in droves to the infrastructural system (a Matrix, if you will) around us and seeing their inherent flaws. Among this vast movement of reinterpretation and revelation, there remains the lowly stubborn asshole few who remain immune to growth and revelation... these are the Lutherans. This article represents this. "How could people leave us....?!?!" The utter amazement in the writer nearly amazes myself! He is basically saying that there is something wrong with the departed and does not really suggest that there might be some real problems in Lutheranism. There is a huge wake-up call happening around the world, and the Lutherans need to get ready because they are also on the menu for intellectual and spiritual upheaval. The problem might be you guys... dumbasses!clhnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-34923687766600993612012-03-23T17:09:10.170-05:002012-03-23T17:09:10.170-05:00Want to make the Lutheran Church stronger?
Here a...Want to make the Lutheran Church stronger?<br /><br />Here are my suggestions:<br /><br />Pastors: Make your sermons relevant. The social gospel is important but feed the people's souls with the personal gospel of Jesus Christ. How can Christ make a difference in their lives?<br /><br />Second: Don't try to copy the non-dnominational mega-churches worship style. Lutheran liturgy is beautiful and historic. Don't change it.<br /><br />Third: People want to know that someone cares about them. The early church looked out for it's members spiritual and physical/emotional well-being. The Mormons have latched onto this concept with great success. We Lutherans need to pick it up again.Garyhttp://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-13924619267638010522011-12-31T21:04:35.371-06:002011-12-31T21:04:35.371-06:00Why isn't the LCMS doing this?
http://www.ca...Why isn't the LCMS doing this?<br /><br /><br />http://www.catholicscomehome.org/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-26787276981466729472011-12-31T20:55:52.561-06:002011-12-31T20:55:52.561-06:00Brian,
We all attended LCMS day school, from Kind...Brian,<br /><br />We all attended LCMS day school, from Kindergarden to 8th grade. We spend 7th and 8th grade studying the catechism. It was intense. Perhaps you also remember memorizing the answers to 200+ questions.<br /><br />Mom used to take us to church. Dad was proud to be unchurched. He tolerated our religious upbringing. He used to enjoy making fun of my mom for going to Thursday night choir practice. Nope, in such an abusive environment, there was no room for anything like home Bible study.<br /><br />To graduate means to finish. Too often, Confirmation Sunday resembles a graduation ceremony INSTEAD of what it should be: An initiation. I blame the Church for encouraging such a perception.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-57856447429801690582011-12-28T22:32:41.517-06:002011-12-28T22:32:41.517-06:00Cafeteria Lutheran,
What was your parents involvem...Cafeteria Lutheran,<br />What was your parents involvement in your catechesis? Did you have any home devotions or Bible study? I ask this because I am the father of two young girls and I hope to prevent the seemingly inevitable drift. When I run across people with your story I'm always interested in any correlation to parental involvement. FYI, I went to a LCMS day school and drifted away for a time until God called me back to His good gifts.<br /><br />---BrianBrian Yamabehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04535848221157850349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-590461303545469542011-12-27T23:37:51.534-06:002011-12-27T23:37:51.534-06:00I can only think of a couple of reasons.... a lack...<i>I can only think of a couple of reasons.... a lack of catechesis and the failure to believe what it is that we confess and teach. Too many have left in ignorance -- not knowing what it is that Lutherans believe and confess. </i><br /><br />I am the only one of four brothers who continues to attend an LCMS church (the others left and do not go anywhere). They fell away even before the LCMS started to embrace contemporary worship and the Church Growth Movement. We all had studied the catechism in order to become church members.<br /><br />My brothers, and many others like them, left after their faith slowly atrophied. I almost left as well. Sure, the services were always traditional: TLH, and later, LW. It was always the same hymns, and the same orders of service, week after week. Somehow, the predictability, the rigidity, and the mindless repetition made it feel as if we were blindly going through the motions. <br /><br />As former LCMSers, my brothers gradually forgot what they were once taught in catechism class. Was such training reinforced after Confirmation Sunday. Was there ever an obvious connection (obvious to the laymen, anyway) between worship and study materials. How can such "ancient" materials be viewed as living and breathing documents that can be applied to our daily, modern lives. <br /><br />I detest Church Growth Movement materials and the attempts by many misguided pastors to turn the LCMS into a "hip" denomination that has obvious relevance in the modern world. Rather than research ways to make the Book of Concord, the hymnal, and traditional service more relevant, applicable, and appealing to the 18-35 year old demographic, these pastors want to dump them all. Not knowing what Lutherans should believe and confess has now been institutionalized by the LCMS.<br /><br />In the first case, people leave because they forget or never truly understood how to apply traditional Lutheran doctrine. Learning how to appreciate traditional worship also takes considerable time and patience. In the second case, Lutheran doctrine is viewed as the problem and is replaced by publications promoted by the Willow Creek Association and by TCN. Contemporary worship is easy to understand, but it lacks any meaningful content. It also promotes a Theology of Glory. Why remain a Lutheran if the church morphs into a bad copy of the non-denominational seeker church down the street.<br /><br />By the way, Lutherans have always been strong on doctrine, but weak regarding fellowship. Conversely, non-denominational churches have always been weak on doctrine, but strong regarding fellowship. For many people, the desire for fellowship trumps the need to believe in sound doctrine. The traditional community no longer exists. How else can we recreate Mayberry?<br /><br />LCMS officials are too timid to admit that the Church Growth Movement has been an abysmal failure. Where is the surge in new members that was promised? People are still leaving the church in droves. Where are the audits of such programs. How many more viable campus religious centers will need to be sold before LCMS officials understand that the young people are still not remaining in the church. How long will the denial of the real problems regarding why people leave the LCMS continue?<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Cafeteria LutheranAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-13057046201382981522011-12-27T12:33:03.839-06:002011-12-27T12:33:03.839-06:00A Christian is a Christian..... "Christ is lo...A Christian is a Christian..... "Christ is looking for Christians..." <br /><br />One, Christ is not 'looking' for Christians, he is MAKING them.<br /><br />Two, I hear ya, Steve, I'm one too.<br /><br />Three, Baptists and Lutherans cannot both be right, Anonymus. They may both be Christians, but one flavor HAS to be wrong, wrong, wrong. If you are a Lutheran, go read the Confessions again. When people complain that Lutherans believe they're the only ones who are right....do you want us to be wrong? Or are you promoting a logical fallacy?Janis Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02947508427040251166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-63631501595048729262011-12-27T12:09:44.912-06:002011-12-27T12:09:44.912-06:00On the other hand Christianity is growing in place...On the other hand Christianity is growing in places like Africa. I am ashamed when I think that some Africans literally walk miles to attend Catholic or Protestant services.<br /><br />May we all repent lest the Lord remove our lampstand as he did at the church at EphesusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-90864591831679416462011-12-27T10:33:58.082-06:002011-12-27T10:33:58.082-06:00I used to live in Minnesota, I'd say the state...I used to live in Minnesota, I'd say the state is probably at least 40% Lutheran overall, in some areas it is over 50%.BrotherBorisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-47276576320445976242011-12-27T10:15:06.140-06:002011-12-27T10:15:06.140-06:00The only important question is this:
ARE FORMER L...The only important question is this:<br /><br />ARE FORMER LUTHERANS STILL ACTIVE<br />CHRISTIANS? We need to get over<br />the idea that the one with the most<br />Lutherans wins. Christ is looking<br />for Christians who trust in Him for<br />eternal salvation and follow Him<br />each day. <br /><br />Move to Minnesota, one out of five<br />adults is Lutheran.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-44849571790280477032011-12-27T10:01:36.667-06:002011-12-27T10:01:36.667-06:00I can speak as a former Lutheran, former member of...I can speak as a former Lutheran, former member of LCMS. I came to Lutheranism as an adult convert from Methodism, and I was looking for particular things in worship that I found in Lutheranism in the mid-1960s. By the mid-1980s, Lutheranism was changing, and in particular the LCMS was discarding TLH. I moved to the WELS who were retaining TLH at that time. I hold strongly to the idea of lex orandi, lex credendi - the law of praying is the law of believing. When CPH began to foist new hymnals on the parishes, the theology of the Church was being changed in subtle ways.<br /><br />I ultimately was led to make the jump to Continuing Anglicanism and the Book of Common Prayer 1928 where I am very much at home. Now I no longer worry about anyone forcing liturgical change on me as when I was a Lutheran.<br /><br />Fr. D<br />Continuing Anglican PriestDr.Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360786634583725263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-29572129792668366572011-12-27T09:38:23.764-06:002011-12-27T09:38:23.764-06:00I'll speak for Pr Peters. I fell away largely ...I'll speak for Pr Peters. I fell away largely by unlearning the habit of worship and learning to fill my Sunday with other stuff. What drew me back were the persistent contacts from church members -- how are you, we miss you, what can we do to help you find your way back, etc. That was accompanied by letters or notes at holiday times. Finally, I decided to brave the "where have you beens" of people making light of my absence and just come back. What compelled me to return was one woman who I knew a bit. Her hug and her whisper in my ear that she had been praying for this day helped all my objections and excuses to melt away. I'll tell you one more thing. It sure helped that when I returned I found the familiar liturgy and hymns and did not feel like the church had passed me by while I was away. Just a few words from one thirty something who took a four year hiatus from church.Prodigal Lutherannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-78438586883272384192011-12-27T08:35:04.431-06:002011-12-27T08:35:04.431-06:00Pastor Peters, What exactly do you say or do when...Pastor Peters, What exactly do you say or do when someone does leave the church? Do you find it is more personal than theological ? Of the ones I know that left were all personality misunderstandings.Judynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-78106468182162602342011-12-27T08:22:44.192-06:002011-12-27T08:22:44.192-06:00Fr. P,
I wonder how many of us are now in our chur...Fr. P,<br />I wonder how many of us are now in our church who weren't born Lutheran but came when we saw it to be the truth. What you have said about the beauty and joy in the Gospel given to us is absolutely true. I came to the Lutheran (LCMS) as fast as I could after the Baptist/Bible church folks had just about demoralized me beyond hope.<br /><br />Peace in Christ (the only way to get peace by the way),<br />SteveStevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977465696758179388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-33272982089044297452011-12-27T07:56:40.357-06:002011-12-27T07:56:40.357-06:00Some I have read (Puritans) say the blame lies par...Some I have read (Puritans) say the blame lies partly in an unconverted clergy, which has been a problem for centuries. The flock will follow the shepherd, after all. And so the only answer I have thought of is to pray daily for every Pastor and his wife in my circuit and beyond that I think of, by name, daily. Lord, have mercy on me a sinner.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09350908137437557142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37757515930170987982011-12-27T07:45:22.594-06:002011-12-27T07:45:22.594-06:00I am on my Android phone and far from spell-check,...I am on my Android phone and far from spell-check, but here it goes. <br /><br />I appreciate this article for many reasons, but mainly because you speak truth about where Lutherans are without blame and without apology for what is truly Lutheran, which is often the scapegoat of the church growth gurus for why we are "failing".<br /><br />I am not a cultural Lutheran. None of my family roots can be traced back to traditionally Lutheran countries for at least 300 years. My father was Roman Catholic and my mother was Southern Baptist. It was not until I was eleven that my non-practicing parents were invited by my dad's boss to attend little Faith Lutheran Church in Yuma, Az, an LCA parish at the time. I was soon the first baptized Lutheran in the family.<br /><br />The pastor was Elsworth Campbell. The service was LBW setting one every Sunday, Holy Communion every Sunday and full vestments on the pastor. Even us poor acolytes had these red cassocks and white surplices that seemed cruel at the time in the heat of Yuma. <br /><br />But what was most important was a pastor who actually taught his confirmation students about the creeds, confessions, sacraments, liturgy and how they all flow from the Bible. He also taught this to my parents and took the time to be a pastor rather than a social worker. <br /><br />Two pastors and an AIM came from our confirmation group, and many who are still in Yuma still attend faith or the other Lutheran church that has since be built.<br /><br />When I moved to Tucson for college, I was shocked that the local Lutheran church nearest my dorm did not have Holy Communion every Sunday and that the liturgy was a hodge-podge mess. <br /><br />When I went to seminary, social justice trumped everything. Scripture, creeds, confessions, sacraments, all supposedly important, but not primary and could and should be pushed aside when they got in the way. (To be fair, it was much more the students than the professors at the time; although, I know some of those students are now professors).<br /><br />I guess my point is that so often what life-long, cultural Lutheran often see as getting in the way are the very things that often attract non-Lutherans. In fear of becoming cultural irrelevant, we have become that and have also lost the core of who we are as Lutheran Christians.Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013921386098199810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-37453748541392894712011-12-27T07:30:17.774-06:002011-12-27T07:30:17.774-06:00Well, what do you think is bigger, the number of f...Well, what do you think is bigger, the number of former Lutherans or the number of former ("non-practicing") Catholics? I don't think our problem is unique.Arielnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6329600504016968888.post-49295960265528777922011-12-27T06:38:42.034-06:002011-12-27T06:38:42.034-06:00Yes I am a Presidential Candidate and a practicing...Yes I am a Presidential Candidate and a practicing Missouri Synod Lutheran. I was an Elder in two of churchs for 21 years. No one has heard of me much as no one has ever heard of any entrepreneur until he is successful although I have had some success: In 2008 when I ran I placed 10th in both Iowa and New Hampshire among serious candidates who ran in both states. This year I am probably about 8th. A MSLutheran from birth I believe that all scripture is written by inspiration of God and everything flows from that. <br />Thank you for all you do to promote God's Word . . . and of course if you have any Lutheran friends in Iowa let them know about me!<br /><br />Vern Wuensche<br />Republican Candidate for President 2012<br />http://www.voteforvern.com<br />vern@voteforvern.comvern wuenschehttp://www.voteforvern.comnoreply@blogger.com