Monday, December 29, 2014

Merry Christmas, from the Pope. . .or not

So the Pope gathered the Curia and wished them a Merry Christmas. . . except there was little that was merry in his address.  According to Francis, the Curia, like the Church, cannot live 'without having a vital, personal, authentic and solid relationship with Christ. And a member of the Curia who does not draw from that every day will become a mere bureaucrat. He added that we will talk about the list of diseases which, following the Fathers of the desert, will aid us in preparing for confession.

The disease of feeling 'immortal' or 'essential''A curia that does not practice self-criticism, does not keep up to date, does not try to better itself, is an infirm Body'. The Pope mentions that a visit to cemeteries could help us see the names of many who 'maybe thought they were immortal, exempt and essential!'. It is the disease of those who 'turn into masters and feel superior to everyone rather than in the service of all people. It often comes from the pathology of power, the "Messiah complex" and narcissism'.

The disease of excessive activity
It is the disease of those who, like Martha in the Gospel, 'lose themselves in their work, inevitably neglecting "what is better"; sitting at Jesus' feet'. The Pope recalls that Jesus 'called his disciples to "rest a little", because neglecting necessary rest brings anxiety and stress'.

The diseases of mental and spiritual 'petrification'
It is the disease of those who 'lose their internal peace, their vivacity and audacity, to hide under papers and become "procedural machines" instead of men of God', unable to 'weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice!'.

The disease of overplanning
'When the apostle plans everything in detail' and believes that, through this, 'things progress effectively, thus becoming an accountant. Good planning is necessary but without falling into the temptation of wanting to enclose or steer the freedom of the Holy Spirit... it is always easier and more convenient to fall back on static and unchanged positions'.

The disease of bad coordination
It is the disease of members who 'lose the community among them, and the Body loses its harmonious functionality' becoming 'an orchestra producing undisciplined noise because its members do not cooperate and do not live communally and have team spirit'.

The disease of spiritual Alzheimer's
That is a 'progressive decline of spiritual faculties' which 'causes severe disadvantages to people', making them live in a 'state of absolute dependence on their, often imagined, views'. We can see this in those who have 'lost their memory' of their encounter with the Lord, in those who depend on their 'passions, whims and obsessions'.

The disease of rivalry and vainglory
'When the appearance, the colour of  the vestments and the honours become the first objectives of life... It is the disease that leads us to become false men and women, living a false "mysticism" and false "quietism"'.

The disease of existential schizophrenia
It is the disease of those who live 'a double life, a result of the hypocrisy typical of mediocre people and of advancing spiritual emptiness, which degrees or academic titles cannot fill'. It often strikes us that some 'abandon the pastoral service and limit their activities to bureaucracy, losing touch with reality and real people. They thus create their own parallel world, where they set aside all that the others harshly teach' and live a 'hidden' and often 'dissolute' life.

The disease of gossip and chatter'It takes hold of a person making them "sowers of discord" (like Satan), and, in many cases, "cold-blooded murderers" of the reputation of their colleagues and brothers. It is the disease of cowards, who do not have the courage to speak upfront and so talk behind one's back... Watch out against the terrorism of gossip!'.

The disease of deifying the leaders
It is the disease of those who 'court their superiors', becoming victims of 'careerism and opportunism' and 'live their vocation thinking only of what they must gain and not of what they must give'. It might also affects the superiors 'when they court some of their collaborators in order to gain their submission, loyalty and psychological dependence, but the final result is real complicity'.

The disease of indifference to others
'When each one thinks only of themselves and loses the truthfulness and warmth of human relationships. When the more experienced ones do not offer their knowledge to the service of less experienced colleagues. When, because of jealousy or cunning, we rejoice in seeing others fall, rather than lift them up and encourage them'.

The disease of the funeral faceIt is the disease of people who are 'scowling and unfriendly and think that, in order to be serious, they must show a melancholic and strict face and treat others - especially those, whom they think are inferior - with rigidity, harshness and arrogance'. In reality, adds the Pope, 'theatrical strictness and sterile pessimism are often symptoms of fear and insecurity about themselves. The apostle must strive to be a polite, serene, enthusiastic and joyful person...'. Francis invites people to be full of humour and self-irony; 'How beneficial a healthy dose of humour can be!'

The disease of hoarding'When the apostle seeks to fill an existential void in his heart by hoarding material possessions, not because of necessity, but only to feel secure'.

The disease of closed circlesWhen belonging to a clique becomes more important than belonging to the Body and, in some situations, than belonging to Christ himself. Even this disease starts from good intentions, but in time it enslaves all its members becoming "a cancer"'.

The disease of worldly profit and exhibitionism
'When the apostle turns his service into power, and his power into a commodity to gain worldly profits, or even more powers. It is the disease of those people who relentlessly seek to increase their powers. To achieve that, they may defame, slander and discredit others, even on newspapers and magazines. Naturally, that is in order to show off and exhibit their superiority to others'. A disease that 'badly hurts the Body because it leads people to justify the use of any means in order to fulfill their aim, often in the name of transparency and justice!'

 
Now, the Curia is certainly worthy of some renewal and reorganization but it appears that Francis, like a certain American President, is impatient that the structures do not allow him to do what he wants, when he wants it.  It is also clear that Francis is not a team player.  One insider to the current papacy suggested that Francis often accepts only reluctantly the advice of others and hardly ever the counsel of the Curia.  I am not an insider here and know little to nothing of the inside workings of the Vatican or the Curia.  But it does sound to me as if Francis is not a progressive at all.  It sounds like he is a radical.  That is unsettling news for those in Rome or in communion with Rome. . .

46 comments:

Jim Davis said...

It is easy to look at others and see their shortcomings and failures. Yet, we should look at ourselves, our Lutheran organizations and structures, and see the failures within. All human organizations have failures; we need to see how Francis' remarks apply to our institutions.

Carl Vehse said...

"Yet, we should look at ourselves, our Lutheran organizations and structures..."

Speaking of which, the Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod is now in the federally chartered banking business as The Lutheran Federal Credit Union, "serv[ing] employees, active members and volunteers of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and its affiliated districts, member congregations, seminaries and other closely aligned entities" with "services including regular shares, share drafts, share certificates, credit cards, mortgage loans, auto loans, student loans, unsecured loans, online banking, mobile banking, ATM access, shared branching and bill payment."

Wyldeirishman said...

"Mediocre people?"

Carl Vehse said...

"Now, the Curia is certainly worthy of some renewal and reorganization but it appears that Francis, like a certain American President, is impatient that the structures do not allow him to do what he wants, when he wants it."

Amazing! Comparing the Antichrist to Traitorobama... or was it to FDR and his SCOTUS-packing scheme.

Kirk Skeptic said...

What I don't understand is, if the pope is indeed what he claims to be, why he would or should bother consulting with anyone?

Gary said...

Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. ---I Corinthians 6:9-10

If you are an LCMS Lutheran, how often have you heard an LCMS pastor's sermon, or read an LCMS pastor's blog article, on the sin of Divorce (divorce other than for infidelity), the sin of Adultery, the sin of Fornication, or the sin of being a Drunkard?

Now compare the number of times that you have heard or read an LCMS pastor preach from his pulpit or from his blog on the damning sins of Divorce, Adultery, Fornication, and Drunkenness with the number of times you have heard the same LCMS pastor preach about the sin of Homosexuality from his pulpit and blog. I will bet that the number of sermons condemning Homosexuality will exceed the total of all the other sins combined.

But, not only is the sin of Homosexuality preached against (attacked) more frequently from the pulpits and blogs of LCMS pastors, but the name calling against the perpetrators of this particular sin far exceeds the name calling against divorcees, adulterers, fornicators, and drunkards. "Sodomites", "Perverts" "Boy Sodomizers", "Degenerates" are perfectly acceptable terms for the perpetrators of the sin of Homosexuality, but the cute, little cashier at the corner market who has shacked-up with her boyfriend for the last two years is not referred to as "that Fornicator", nor is the drunkard standing in front of the LCMS altar, pronouncing the Words of Institution, referred to as a "vile and evil Drunk". No. The good pastors of the LCMS have decided that just one of the sins in the above Bible verse, and the perpetrators of that one sin in the above Bible verse, deserve their greatest attention, condemnation, and vilification.

The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod...officially...will tell you that LCMS Lutheran Christians hate Homosexuality but love the people "afflicted" by the sin of Homosexuality. In other words, the official position of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner."

But the reality is, that a very significant percentage of pastors in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod hate homosexuals. They really, really hate homosexuals! Homosexuals make their skin crawl and their stomachs squeemish. Yes, you read that previous sentence correctly. A significant percentage of LCMS pastors hate gays and lesbians.

Don't believe me? Look at the evidence for yourself.

I challenge you to go onto the blogs of some of the most popular LCMS pastors' blogs and do a topic search on "homosexuality". Read the articles, but more importantly, read the comments below the articles. In the comment section, you will find some of the most vile, vicious, anti-gay hate speech, most often written by the pastor's gay-bashing, gay-hating, God-fearing conservative Christian readers---such as the infamous "Carl Vehse", otherwise known (without his white robe and hood) as Richard Strickert of Austin, Texas---all written without any censoring or rebuke from the LCMS pastor/blog owner/moderator...and... sometimes you will even catch one of these Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod "men of God" spewing this vitriolic hate speech himself.

Conclusion: A significant percentage of pastors in the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod are gay-bashing Peddlers of Hate, and for this reason the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod must be placed on the Hate Watch lists of the Southern Poverty Law Center, the ACLU, and every other human rights organization in the United States---until the leadership/hierarchy of this Christian denomination finally develops the backbone and intestinal fortitude to put an end to this hateful, un-American, disgraceful behavior.

Carl Vehse said...

Is there a confessional Lutheran checklist of individual sins, weighed by their relative evilness, which a LCMS pastor can use to make sure he takes affirmative action on condemning each and every one appropriately without skipping over or showing favoritism in condemning any particular one. Lutherans should expect all sins to have equal opportunity for condemnation by their pastor.

Such a list would even include hate-mongering Gary's 8th commandment-violation.

Gary said...

Instead of crying over mean persecution of your Hate Speech, Richard, you should fall on your knees and repent of your un-Jesus-like behavior. You are the poster child of Hate Speech in the LCMS.

I am currently reviewing all articles written by LCMS pastors which vilify and demonize gays and lesbians to present them to the Southern Poverty Law Center, ACLU, and other human rights organizations. Your moniker, "Carl Vehse", pops up frequently among these ugly comments.

Referring to homosexuality as a sin is NOT hate speech. Referring to homosexuality as unbiblical is not hate speech. Preaching and teaching that Christians should not engage in homosexual acts is not hate speech.

But demonizing people who disregard your personal religious standards on sexual behavior by referring to them as "boy sodomizers" is hate speech, and these words came directly out of YOUR mouth, Richard. I'll be happy to give you the reference.

I intend to send a copy of your hate speech to chapters of the ACLU, NAACP, (I'm sure they will love your "melanin" comments) and the Human Rights Campaign in Austin, and to your physics association. You have a right to spew hate, but we have the right to expose you for the hateful, bigot that you appear to be.

Prove me wrong and repent/recant right here, right now on Pastor Peters blog. And while we are at it, Pastor Peters should join you in repentance and recant his tacit support of such hate speech on his blog.

Anonymous said...

What i can't figure out is why blog owners have not yet banned the Richard (Carl Vehse). He is one of the most obnoxious, spiteful, unchristian posters I have read anywhere he post. I keep praying he will leave the LCMS and make it a better place

Gary said...

Dear Anonymous:

The reason that "Carl Vehse", or as I prefer to call him, Klansman Karl, has not been banned from Pastor Peters' blog, Gene Veith's blog, The Brothers of John the Steadfast blog, Pastor Mark Surburg's blog, and others, is because these pastors, deep down. LOATHE homosexuals. To see a homosexual causes their skin to crawl and their stomachs to churn. In short, deep down, maybe only subconsciously, many LCMS pastors HATE gay people.

Yes, the official LCMS motto is: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner" but this attitude really only applies to the sexual sins of Adultery, Divorce, and Fornication.

LCMS pastors need to repent of their hate for this one category of "sinners". Jesus NEVER once used hate speech against persons involved in sexual sins, so why do LCMS pastors routinely say or allow their readers to say the most vicious, vile things about a group of "sinners" whom Jesus loves?

LCMS pastors need to take a refresher course on how to treat gays and lesbians with the love of Christ. I am not asking LCMS pastors to endorse or condone homosexuality. I am not asking LCMS pastors to use the term "gay"; they can use the term "homosexual". All I am asking LCMS pastors is to repent of their vilification/demonization of gays and lesbians by promoting hateful stereotypes ("all gay men want to seduce adolescent boys"---a crime) and ask them to stop using hate terms such as "perverts", "sodomites", "boy sodomizers", "degenerates", etc.

An LCMS pastor may not say these slurs himself on his blog, but if he allows this hate speech on his blog without any censure or condemnation, and eventual banishment, he is guilty of having said the hateful slur himself.

Repent, LCMS Pastors! Your behavior towards gays and lesbians is a shameful cancer on the reputation of the loving, compassionate Jesus of Nazareth.

Gary said...

Pastor Peter's silence is deafening...and shameful.

This is the attitude I have come across on this issue with a number of LCMS pastors. They seem to follow George W. Bush's motto: Never admit you are wrong! Never say, "I'm sorry".

Again, I am not asking anyone to recant their belief that homosexuality is a sin nor that it is unbiblical behavior for Christians. It is the hateful demonization of gays and lesbians for which I am calling for repentance.

Pastor Peters: Why can't you apologize for participating/publishing this hate speech? Don't you think that Jesus would want you to apologize for your participation and promotion of this hateful behavior?

As for Richard Strickert, aka "Carl Vehse", he is an LCMS layperson who attends an LCMS church in Austin, Texas. Does anyone know the name of his church and his pastor? I think someone should make Richard's LCMS pastor aware of his hateful, un-Christian behavior.

Is Richard's pastor Rev. Paul Harris, LCMS pastor, Austin, Texas? If so, I will understand where Richard gets his hateful attitude toward gays. Pastor Paul Harris is another LCMS pastor who promotes and tolerates hate speech on his blog.

David Gray said...

Just remember Gary you are the chucklehead who repeatedly asserted I was Pastor Peters. Oops.

David Gray said...

Tell us Gary, are these guilty of "hate crimes" or "hate speech"?

Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD. Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces. As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun. Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath. The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
(Psa 58:6-11)

Gary said...

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a great man, a man of compassion, a man of peace, a man of forgiveness, and a man of non-violent resistance to evil and oppression. Jesus said many wonderful things, especially the Beatitudes.

However, other people in the Bible have said some not so nice things. In fact, some people/authors of books in the Bible have said some downright evil things:

---killing entire nations of peoples, including infants, just because they were on the land you wanted to steal.

---dashing the heads of the children of your enemies against rocks.

---stoning to death women whose hymen were not intact on their wedding night...and on and one.

There is a lot of Evil Hate Speech in the Christian Bible, just as there is in the Jewish Torah, and just as there is in the Muslim Koran.

There is Good in these ancient Holy Books, but there is also a lot of despicable evil. Instead of accepting them in their entirety as the inerrant words of our respective, invisible gods, let's praise the good in them, and condemn the evil in them. That is the mature, educated, twenty-first century approach to ancient religions and their holy books.

Now, will Pastor Peters please step out from behind the puppeteer's booth and comment on the anti-gay hate speech he allows on this blog.

Carl Vehse said...

Here's the ultimate hate speech by Gary himself: "In February, 2014, I was a devout orthodox (fundamentalist) Christian. By June, 2014, I was no longer Christian. I came to realize that all fundamentalist religions are based on ignorant superstitions; superstitions that cause sane, decent people to hate and commit violence all in the name of their "inerrant" holy books. I now follow Reason and Science. I want to share these truths and ask you to join me in the fight against Religious Fundamentalism and it's agenda of Hate."

With his anti-Christian hatred Gary's transference pathology, as demonstrated in his rage against any and all who represent his now-rejected faith, can be clearly seen.

On his blog and on other blogs Gary charges various people with assorted hatreds. But no matter how much his diatribes accuse these people of what he sees as hate and anti-Christian behavior, he ultimately demonstrates his greater hatred and anti-Christian behavior against those same people he threatens.

Gary said...

You are correct, Klansman Karl, I hate baseless bigotry and discrimination.

Have Gay people ever done anything to your personally, Richard Stickert? I doubt it.

You hate gays, you revile them, you denigrate them, simply because an ancient, Bronze Age, middle-eastern holy book says that they are evil. That's it.

That is ignorant. That is Hate. That is baseless bigotry.

I am deeply ashamed that I was ever a member of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. It is a hate promoting organization. I am now performing self imposed "penance" for my participation in this Hate Group---exposing the Peddlers of Hate hiding behind the front of religious respectability.

Repent, Klansman Karl. You are a sorry excuse for a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth.

Pastor Peters said...

First of all, I do not hate homosexuals or loathe them. There is no hierarchy of sins to excuse some and condemn others. I seldom speak except in general terms about the agenda of those who insist upon nothing less than the full and complete acceptance of homosexuality. I have been accused of being a bigot for quoting labels that people within this movement have taken up as provacative badges of pride. I do NOT moderate comments and no one should ever presume that because a comment stands it is supported by me or any other reader. I began this blog with the idea that the comments would not be moderated. Rather than moderate comments, I will, if necessary, prevent any and all comments. I do not read many comments and certainlt do not go back to old posts that have new comments. Maybe I should. I do not have the time. But I will say that peddlers of hate exist all over the spectrum of opinions. Your self-appointed role of exposer of hate is its own form of intolerance and bigotry. I read many things that I find shocking and rude and offensive. Unless you can show me otherwise, I have never expressed hate or loathing for any person. You have every right to set up your own blog and foster your own support for your opinions. You are doing nothing to encourage tolerance by what you have written here and elsewhere.

Pastor Peters

Gary said...

Richard,

Is it Christ-like for you to have said this:

"Queer scouts have been approved by more than 60 percent of local Scout leaders! Now to see how many church bodies tell BSA where they can shove their decision (in a manner of speaking) and remove their sponsored troops from Scouting. Who will be the first? What are the odds that the LCMS will remove their troops from BSA (Boy Sodomy Association) within the next six months? ---"Carl Vehse", The Brothers of John the Steadfast Blog

Gary said...

Or how about this comment, Richard?

“When it comes down to it, it seems that the real reason homosexual marriage is being pushed is to legitimize their relationship.” A more likely reason is that the Demonicrat party, homosexuals, pedophiles, necrophiles, polyamoriphiles, and every other kind of animal-, vegetable-, and mineral-philes have no interest in marriage, but simply want to destroy the concept of normal heterosexual (and Christian) marriage and any associated standards."
---"Carl Vehse", The Brothers of John the Steadfast Blog


Carl Vehse said...

Those statements were not made on Pastoral Meanderings. Rather than hijack this thread, discuss them on the blog where they were posted.

Gary said...

Thank you for responding, Pastor Peters.

If it were true that you do NOT moderate your blog as you assert; that you allow any and all comments on your blog as an open and free public forum, then you would be correct: You would not be responsible for the vile and hateful comments of some of your conservative Christian readers.

Unfortunately your assertion is false. You DO moderate your blog. Maybe not very carefully, but you do moderate. For instance, you have threatened me in the past to keep my (critical of conservative Christianity) comments on topic or you will delete them and ban me from further commenting. Doing either of these things is certainly your right as the owner of this blog, Pastor Peters, but you cannot threaten me with banishment and assert at the same time that you do not moderate your blog.

So even if your moderation is spotty and poor, the fact that you would threaten to moderate comments that you find insulting to your conservative religious and political views, but then allow any and all degrading comments and name-calling of gays and lesbians show that you have a prejudicial bias. It shows that you have a moderating bias: "Don't criticize my beliefs too severely or too repetitively, but you can bash the "perverts" as much as you like."

That is NOT a free and open forum of discussion, Pastor Peters. That is a moderated blog.

If you don't want to be accused and labeled as a hate condoning bigot, I suggest you do the following: Stop allowing all comments on your blog AND delete all previous hate speech on your blog. This would be very easy to do: Do a topic search on your blog on "homosexuality" and delete all comments on these fifteen or so articles. (I have read them all, with their comments, so I know they exist)

I nor the ACLU nor the Southern Poverty Law Center have any issue with you preaching in your church or on your blog that homosexuality is unbiblical and a sin. But if you demonize gays and lesbians either in your speech or in the speech of your readers, on your moderated blog, you will be held responsible for promoting hate speech.

You and David Gray may not care if the ACLU and the SPLC label you and the LCMS as Hate Groups, but I will bet that Mr. and Mrs. John Laity in your church will. It won't be pleasant for most of your parishioners to have your church publically declared the moral equivalent of the KKK.

Gary said...

Richard:

No, I am discussing your hateful, un-Christian behavior here because this is where you are at this moment of time.

Repent, Bigot.

David Gray said...

>>“When it comes down to it, it seems that the real reason homosexual marriage is being pushed is to legitimize their relationship.” A more likely reason is that the Demonicrat party, homosexuals, pedophiles, necrophiles, polyamoriphiles, and every other kind of animal-, vegetable-, and mineral-philes have no interest in marriage, but simply want to destroy the concept of normal heterosexual (and Christian) marriage and any associated standards."

OK Gary, let's look at that. Some of the language is a bit puerile but essentially Richard is discussing the motivation of two groups of people and why they wish to destroy the historic, conventional and orthodox understanding of marriage. The first group, the Democrats, Richard gets wrong. Individual Democrats are undoubtedly motivated by hostility to a genuine understanding of marriage but the party as a whole is motivated by power as much as any other factor.

The other group is people whose sexuality is perverted. There are a good many examples from that group that their motivation is indeed the destruction of marriage. That is almost surely not true of each and every last member but it is certainly a conventional motivation as evidenced by their own statements.

So Richard's primary point is sound and would be acknowledged by any knowledgeable and objective commenter. At most you can play style coach.

David Gray said...

>>You and David Gray may not care if the ACLU and the SPLC label you and the LCMS as Hate Groups, but I will bet that Mr. and Mrs. John Laity in your church will.

Actually the laity in our church has no regard for the SPLC or ACLU (wise men and women that they are).

The SPLC isn't exactly a mainstream group but have served as a targeting service for an aspiring mass murder (who certainly would appear to be motivated by hate in his desire to shoot Christians).

Gary said...

David,

Lumping gays and lesbians into the same category as "pedophiles" (a crime) and "necrophiles" (a crime)is hate speech. If you do not believe me, go to the website of the Southern Poverty Law Center and read it for yourself.

You may not like that this statement is considered hate speech, but Klansman probably don't agree that "nigger" should be considered hate speech.

We do not allow the Haters in our society to define the definition of Hate.

David Gray said...

>>We do not allow the Haters in our society to define the definition of Hate.

Tough break for you.

I suspect you probably know that people with a homosexual inclination are considerably more prone to pedophilia than people without. But there are heterosexual pedophiles as well. But both pedophiles and homosexuals are perverted in their sexuality.

If you really care about them you'd want them to repent. But as you appear to have chosen the highway to hell it appears you want a lot of fellow travelers.

Gary said...

Pastor Peters,

Here is a comment left on your blog that meets the SPLC definition of Hate Speech:

"They (whoever they may be) prey on the confused, hormone laden youth and convince them that it is a choice and encourage same sex relationships even if for a "trial" to determine if you like any or all sexes. I liked Pr. Fisk's reply via Paul to the issue, that the Lord has just turned them over to a depraved mind, following their lusts. Soon, we'll be commenting on even more depravity, which will make homosexuality seem bland by comparison."
---Pastoral Meanderings, the Blog of Rev. Larry Peters

This statement plays up the myth that gay men prey on adolescent boys for sexual conquest(a felony crime). This is no different than a Klansman saying the following:

"We must keep the Coloreds separated from our women and children because it is a known fact that Colored men are more sexual promiscuous, prone to sexual diseases, and more likely to commit rape."

Both are unfounded, hysteria-inciting hate speech.

Gary said...

"I suspect you probably know that people with a homosexual inclination are considerably more prone to pedophilia than people without."

That is hate speech, David. I will post a statement from the SPLC on just this false myth below.

David Gray said...

>>That is hate speech, David.

Most of us call it math.

Gary said...


Depicting gay men as a threat to children may be the single most potent weapon for stoking public fears about homosexuality — and for winning elections and referenda, as Anita Bryant found out during her successful 1977 campaign to overturn a Dade County, Fla., ordinance barring discrimination against gay people. Discredited psychologist Paul Cameron, the most ubiquitous purveyor of anti-gay junk science, has been a major promoter of this myth. Despite having been debunked repeatedly and very publicly, Cameron's work is still widely relied upon by anti-gay organizations, although many no longer quote him by name. Others have cited a group called the American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) to claim, as Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council did in November 2010, that "the research is overwhelming that homosexuality poses a [molestation] danger to children.”

THE FACTS

According to the American Psychological Association, "homosexual men are not more likely to sexually abuse children than heterosexual men are." Gregory Herek, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who is one of the nation's leading researchers on prejudice against sexual minorities, reviewed a series of studies and found no evidence that gay men molest children at higher rates than heterosexual men.

Anti-gay activists who make that claim allege that all men who molest male children should be seen as homosexual. But research by A. Nicholas Groth, a pioneer in the field of sexual abuse of children, shows that is not so. Groth found that there are two types of child molesters: fixated and regressive. The fixated child molester — the stereotypical pedophile — cannot be considered homosexual or heterosexual because "he often finds adults of either sex repulsive" and often molests children of both sexes. Regressive child molesters are generally attracted to other adults, but may "regress" to focusing on children when confronted with stressful situations. Groth found, as Herek notes, that the majority of regressed offenders were heterosexual in their adult relationships.

The Child Molestation Research & Prevention Institute notes that 90% of child molesters target children in their network of family and friends, and the majority are men married to women. Most child molesters, therefore, are not gay people lingering outside schools waiting to snatch children from the playground, as much religious-right rhetoric suggests.

Gary said...

Our beliefs about others should be based on evidence, not whipped up hysteria.

There is no scientific evidence that gay men are more prone to be pedophiles. This is simply a "boogeyman" created by the purveyors of Hate.

David Gray said...

Do you feel comfortable leaning so heavily on an organization which serves as a targeting service for an aspiring mass murderer?

Lots of neutral sites have numbers showing the disproportionate number of same sex molestations.

Gary said...

Ok, David. Please give me one accredited medical society or one law enforcement organization that provides statistics/research that gay men are more prone to pedophilia than heterosexual men.

Gary said...

From the University of California, Davis:

Members of disliked minority groups are often stereotyped as representing a danger to the majority's most vulnerable members. For example, Jews in the Middle Ages were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Black men in the United States were often lynched after being falsely accused of raping White women.
In a similar fashion, gay people have often been portrayed as a threat to children. Back in 1977, when Anita Bryant campaigned successfully to repeal a Dade County (FL) ordinance prohibiting anti-gay discrimination, she named her organization "Save Our Children," and warned that "a particularly deviant-minded [gay] teacher could sexually molest children" (Bryant, 1977, p. 114). [Bibliographic references are on a different web page]

In recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are child molesters. This argument was often made in debates about the Boy Scouts of America's policy to exclude gay scouts and scoutmasters. More recently, in the wake of Rep. Mark Foley's resignation from the US House of Representatives in 2006, antigay activists and their supporters seized on the scandal to revive this canard.

It has also been raised in connection with scandals about the Catholic church's attempts to cover up the abuse of young males by priests. Indeed, the Vatican's early response to the 2002 revelations of widespread Church cover-ups of sexual abuse by priests was to declare that gay men should not be ordained

Gary said...

Reflecting the results of these and other studies, as well as clinical experience, the mainstream view among researchers and professionals who work in the area of child sexual abuse is that homosexual and bisexual men do not pose any special threat to children. For example, in one review of the scientific literature, noted authority Dr. A. Nicholas Groth wrote:

Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children and are preadolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual (Groth & Gary, 1982, p. 147).

In a later literature review, Dr. Nathaniel McConaghy (1998) similarly cautioned against confusing homosexuality with pedophilia. He noted, "The man who offends against prepubertal or immediately postpubertal boys is typically not sexually interested in older men or in women" (p. 259).

Gary said...

Some conservative groups have argued that scientific research strongly supports their claims that homosexuality and pedophilia are linked. The Family Research Council has produced what is perhaps the most extensive attempt to document this claim. It is an article by Timothy J. Dailey titled Homosexuality and Child Abuse.

With 76 footnotes, many of them referring to papers in scientific journals, it appears at first glance to be a thorough and scholarly discussion of the issue. On further examination, however, its central argument – that "the evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls" – doesn't hold up.

Gary: So you see, David, mainstream science and medicine do not find any evidence to support the claim that gay men are more likely to be pedophiles.

If you are going to endorse such a position, please provide legitimate evidence for your position or admit that you are holding onto it solely for the purpose of whipping up anti-gay hysteria by playing on the fears of the parents and relatives of small children.

David Gray said...

The kind of games played by the blog you quote from UC Davis are well demonstrated by this paragraph:

"Another problem related to terminology arises because sexual abuse of male children by adult men2 is often referred to as "homosexual molestation." The adjective "homosexual" (or "heterosexual" when a man abuses a female child) refers to the victim's gender in relation to that of the perpetrator. Unfortunately, people sometimes mistakenly interpret it as referring to the perpetrator's sexual orientation."

So according to this blog, which you find authoritative, a man may sexually molest a boy without having a same sex temptation. You may find it comforting to turn off your mind and embrace that sort of hand waving dreck but I'm afraid I don't.

If you really truly feel comfortable saying that a man who molests a boy is not engaged in homosexual activity then you are sufficiently debased in your intellect to make this a complete waste of time.

Gary said...

Read the entire article, David. No one is excusing the abuse of children.

The question is related to the use concise terminology so that we all understand the terms we are using. For instance, is a man who sexually abuses young boys and young girls, but has no sexual attraction to either adult males or females a homosexual simply because he has sexually assaulted a male child? Most people would not refer to this person as a homosexual. I would bet that you would.

That is why we must be clear with our terminology.

You are playing to hysteria instead of looking at the facts.

I will be happy to review with you any research that you would like to present from any reputable university or law enforcement organization on this issue.

Pastor Peters said...

Gary,

I do NOT moderate the blog comments. I may address people who abuse the forum (which I have done 4-5 times in the same number of years) but I do not edit or remove comments (except a feature which removed commercial advertisements from comments). You are wrong. If I can be held responsible for everything people post, it would mean I am in tacit agreement with those who attack me personally (of which there have been many comments). That is not logical. The comments are unmoderated.

That said, you have abused the forum by turning the comments into personal arguments between you and other commenters and that is becoming a problem. Look at the length of this comment thread, how virtually none of these comments has anything to with the blog post, and how no one else is commenting on this post.

You are free to hold whatever opinions you have. You may host your own blog and make whatever statements you wish to make. I do not think you advance your cause by hijacking a comment thread on this blog. One of the great dangers of policing thought and comment is that it only pushes the worst of these under the radar. Instead of doing this, address your cause in a thoughtful and polite manner in your own forum. I know that I have never countenanced hate or loathing against anyone, no matter how strongly I have disagreed with them or their values.

Pastor Peters

Gary said...

That is the entire point, Pastor Peters: If you can act (as the moderator) against "those who abuse the forum" you can act as moderator against those who abuse gays and lesbian Americans by their vile hate speech.

Bottom line: I don't think you care.

Pastor Peters said...

There is another bottom line, Gary. You do not know me. Again, you do not know who I contacted to tone down the rhetoric. I would be happy to continue this discussion privately but little light is being generated here -- only heat.

Pastor Peters

Gary said...

If it is true that you have asked some of your readers to refrain from using hate speech, I applaud you, Pastor Peters. I say that sincerely.

Happy New Year.

Anonymous said...

Gary is a bat crap crazy doctor in California who seriously thinks he is making a difference by spamming multiple Lutheran blog sites.

He has attempted to contact LCMS leadership, but his letters have been thrown away.

He is mentally ill and the authorities in California are currently investigating him and consider revoking his license to practice medicine.

Gary, your days are numbered.

Gary said...

Dear Anonymous:

Hooded bigots are very bold in their rhetoric. Take off the hood and reveal your true identity.

Name
Profession
City of Residence

Gary said...

Anonymous: Your death threat has been reported to the FBI.

Anonymous online comments can be easily traced.

Anonymous said...

DJ/Gary -

I am not "hooded" by any means, so that one won't work with me.

You have taken advantage of the kind nature of Pastor Peters, and accused him before fully investigation your accusation - not unusual with you and your methodology . . .

A number of us have in daily prayers. We have asked the Lord to let you prove your new-found "faith" seem as foolish to you as it does the rest of us, and all the sites you blitzkrieg with your non-sensical scat-matter.

Our prayers are being answered - you are being ignored and properly ridiculed; your theology is a shambles so you trying to correct anyone has become one of the more hilarious reads online, and your sense of frustration is becoming ever more evident - witness your "claiming" to have contacted the FBI about a death threat!

As did the Prodigal, you are quickly approaching the pit of the pigs, and their culinary husks.

We prayerfully await you on your journey home.

Pastor Baxter