He also ordered the Deacons to pray for the Lutheran woman bishop during litany. This has angered several Orthodox faithful.
Archbishop Leo- Primate of the Finnish Orthodox Church has condemned the incident and has asked Metropolitan to clarify the issue before considering any measures against him.
Major Finnish newspapers have reported the incident. Archbishop Leo have released an official statement on the controversial incident which is available at the official website of the Finnish Church.
Does this woman look like a Finish Orthodox bishop? priest? deacon? laywoman? What was in the mind of Metropolitan Ambrosius of Helsinki to invite female Lutheran bishop Irja Askola to the altar during a clergy ordination? Read it in Finnish here. So far I do not have a date. Can somebody help me here?
Pastor Peters, I understand your view against the ordination of women, it was mine once and I continue to evaluate my thinking on the subject thanks to folks like you, but your sentence-- "Does this woman look like a Finish Orthodox bishop? priest? deacon? laywoman?"-- I believe, is less than helpful. I do not know whether this woman is an orthodox (small o) pastor and bishop or not and certainly, like you, am surprised she would be invited by an Orthodox Metropolitan to participate for whatever reason. But it is not what she (or he for that matter) LOOKS like. There are male pastors who do not look pastoral,
ReplyDeletemuch less bishop-ble. At least in my opinion. I am sure you have, if I read you right, better reasons for not ordaining women. As those of us who do have better reasons for doing so, I hope. Respectfully, Harvey
This took place on 1 March this year.
ReplyDeleteNo, this woman is not orthodox Lutheran in any way. I have a copy in my archives of an interview of her by a church newspaper a few weeks before the episcopal election where she failed to recite the Nicene Creed from memory; when asked whether she accepted the creeds entirely, including the virgin birth, she refused to say 'yes'. Instead, she simply declared that she has no trouble speaking the creed in church—though it should not be understood as a statement on biological realities.
This lady is also an active advocate of the blessing of LBGTetc. couples in church, and has suggested opening sharing church buildings with Muslims (a courtesy not extended to congregations of the Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese, which are not allowed to use church property even as rent-paying tenants).
Fine, thank you, now there are two reasons why not to elect or receive or ordain her, some because she is a woman and some because additionally, like you and I, find her not orthodox in teaching and belief... but not because of how she looks. The only point I make is that if you had a woman Lutheran pastor or bishop who was completely orthodox in all ways except in her acceptance of the ordination of women... you could not say she does not look like a pastor or a bishop (well, you could say that, but I would respectfully disagree). She may not look like pastors or bishops a given person might know but you wouldn't say that a Methodist woman pastor does not look like a pastor... again you might say she has no right to be a pastor, but she is one by someone else's standards. In fact I would be bold enough to say that the LCMS does not ordain women because of how they look but because of their sex, which hopefully is a greater category than simply looks or what a person looks like in vestments. To turn it onto myself: When I see a pic of a male in suit and tie or casual dress and someone tells me that is a Lutheran pastor, I can and probably would be inclined to say, he does not look like a pastor but clothes do not make the office. And vestments are only my archaic viewpoint-- fortunately and unfortunately. Enough said maybe too much said. I may have picked on Pr Peters words which were merely clothing instead of more important thought.
ReplyDeleteHarvey, there is a more charitable interpretation of Pr Peters' remarks. This isn't so much about "women don't look like pastors" (although he and I would agree that they should not be) as much as "How could one mistake a female Lutheran bishop for some Eastern Orthodox church dignitary (by definition male)?" There is little overlap between Eastern and Western clergy haberdashery. That leads one to think that he was making an ecumenical gesture--and thus perhaps did this intentionally. If so, he showed no awareness for the controversy within the Finish Orthodox Church that such a move would naturally make.
ReplyDeleteEither way, the metropolitan wasn't very observant about what was going on around him. Hence the question in the title of the blog post.
Tapani,
ReplyDeleteIf I'm not mistaken, you are a pastor in the Finnish Mission Province and thus a Finn, right? Could you translate the linked article since it seems to say more than the original post does? I tried to see if there was something in Swedish, since that is a minority language in Finland, but couldn't find anything easily. (Even the Swedish Wikipedia doesn't seem to have an article on her.) And my Chrome browser doesn't offer to translate the Finnish for me; maybe it's given up because I never want it to translate pages in German, Norwegian, French, Spanish, etc.
James, did not think of that way, and you indeed may be right and I wrong. Good way to begin Holy Week, in the wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe 'Google-translated' version of the newspaper article is here at Lutheran female bishop's visit started learning [sic] the dispute Finnish Orthodox Church.
ReplyDeleteI am a Finn, but I serve the Evangelical Lutheran Church of England. Unfortunately, I won't have time to translate for now. My apologies! The basic facts are as Pr. Peters reported them.
ReplyDeleteJames got my drift; sorry I confused you Fr. Harvey...
ReplyDeleteTapani,
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine why you wouldn't have any time to do it right now--just because it's the busiest week of the year for us clergy folk. Thanks, anyway, and a blessed Holy Week to you and your congregation. The Google-translated version provided by Carl Vehse, though somewhat odd at times, surely captures the gist--and that is all I really needed.