It is also said that since God made people the way they are, we must accept them as they are -- gay, straight, trans, or whatever. What people may believe is not the arbiter of truth. Believing it does not make it true any more than not believing renders it false. While it may sound neat to say God made me the way I am, it is hardly Biblical. Did God intend for people to be born with physical or mental handicap? Did God intend for a baby to be born addicted to drugs? Did God intend for people to be born with genes that might portend cancer or addiction or physical ill down the road? Did God intend for people to be born into a world of poverty, want, need, violence, inequity, etc? Our feelings sound good in certain lights but they sound terrible in another light. Our feelings should be respected as feeling but they do not define or make truth. God does that. And we are privileged to receive that truth and, by the power of the Holy Spirit, to believe it and to live because of it. That is the Gospel. Not that our feelings define us or must be accepted no matter what or honored as the ultimate truth.
Are there cultural things in Scripture that refer to a specific context and time? Of course. Not everything in Scripture is truth there for all time and for all people. That does not diminish the Word of God. We are not forbidden for all time from eating shrimp and lobster or pork chops or bacon. Everyone knows this. To place God's creation of them male and female into the same category as shellfish or pork is, well, ludicrous.
Finally, how you love is not a fluid thing or a flexible thing or something you define. If that were the case, there could be no condemnation for anything consensual at all. How you love is not something you define. God has defined the shape of love, creating them male and female and commanding them to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and have dominion over all else He made. Can humans screw it up? Of course they can and regularly do (everything from sexual abuse to adultery to pornography to prostitution to bestiality to a host of other things imagined but not yet even formally invented). And that is the point. God has created a shape and an order of love -- one that He applies even to the Church the bride and Christ the bridegroom. So enough with all the goofiness that loving the individual means accepting and approving all that they think, desire, say, or do. If that were the case, Jesus Himself would be superfluous and we would all be good just as we are, deep in our sins.
What about all those divorced and remarried people in your congregation. They are adulterers. What about all those overweight, even grossly obese men, women, and children in your congregation? Do you publicly call them to repentance and deny them the sacraments until they repent? To not do so, is to approve of their damnable sins.
ReplyDeleteWhat you have said is not wrong. But it is also irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteIt is irrelevant because Christians have, for too many decades, confessed through word and action, that the person who is same sex attracted can not be accepted or loved regardless of their obedience to God.
I am tired of being alone and tired of hating myself but there is no where to go to have simple friendships. Christians don't want people like me because I am gay and the place I feel loneliest is Church. Gay people don't want me because I am Christian and celibate. And I think I have given up caring whether God gives a crap about me or not.
God is God and deserves to be obeyed. So I will remain celibate till I die. But after that I really hope he does not make me go to heaven because being around people and pretending to be happy in order to give a "good witness" is just exhausting. I hope he just lets me sleep for eternity.
so what you say is true but mostly pointless because Christians, aside from a few empty phrases, don't actually accept or want people like me anyway.
Matt, dear in Christ,
ReplyDeleteThere is much for us to reflect on as you bear witness to a church that often professes Christ with the mouth but denies him in our actions. Hence always the need to repent from sin which condemns the sinner with the sin. I must commend you on the desire to live a holy and chaste life. God be praised. I am not sure what Christian church you attend, but I know of many Orthodox Churches where you would be loved and revered for your daily walk with Christ. There is a group affiliated with but not restricted to the Roman Catholic Church called COURAGE that ministers to folks in your set of circumstances. Perhaps you need to find a place that values your efforts to live a holy life. if I can be of help please let me know.
With prayers and seeking your forgiveness to all of us who fail to measure up to the Gospel mandate of love. Fr. Gregory
Matt,
ReplyDeleteAs a same-sex attracted male I know your pain. You are bearing your Cross much better than I am. That said, I would say that you are not gay since the word gay has been politicized and has nothing to do with happiness and everything to do with a way of life and how one comports themselves in that "lifestyle."
You, like me, are attracted to members of the same sex. Why is that so? There are many theories of why that happens and it is tiring to listen to them because we have no recourse. For heterosexuals who 'stray" it is a sin but at least forgivable since the sex between the two is "normal." For us not so. It is a double whammy. And to find a place where we can call home is tough because even though you are open about your proclivities and that you are striving to live within the confines of Christian morality, people will still have misgivings about you. I see this within my own immediate family.
I attend Mass but refrain from going to Holy Communion because, as I have said, I have not born the Cross well. But I don't give up hope and neither should you. I don't imagine heaven being filled with stuffy holier than thou Christians. Christ had severe admonitions against those who were puffed up. Once we enter the glory of heaven (should we make it there) we won't be concerned about how others perceive us since our joy will be in the eternal worship of God. That is our hope.
I hope this didn't ramble. Let's pray for each other.
God bless you.
Fr Gregory,
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you two questions. Recently there has been a lot of talk that homosexuals in the priest hood are the reason boys have been molested in the Catholic Church. The assumptions behind this are basically garbage science and prejudice. Priest are no more likely to molest a kid than anyone else and gay people are no more likely to molest a kid than a straight man. But what is your response when this is brought up in your hearing? Do you defend same sex attracted men in the ministry and say let people know that gay men do not offend any more often then straight men? Do you defend gay priests and point out that they are just as dedicated and consistent in regards to celibacy as straight priests? Or do you remain silent?
I ask this because topics like this work their way into the family. I told my parents years ago that I am same sex attracted. They have asked me only one question and we have had exactly one discussion about it. The question they asked was whether there was a risk of any boy accusing me of molesting him. They assumed because I am gay I must have a propensity toward underage boys. Garbage opinions like those which blame homosexuals in the priesthood for the molestations which have occurred is what creates this kind of thinking in the home.
So what have you and your Church done to combat this?
Secondly, what have you done to combat the bullying of gay kids? In the protestant churches the attitude is that any anti-bullying program is likely to create a "protected class" of LGBT kids and so such programs are often opposed. What has your church done to combat that bullying? Anything practical?
I have heard nothing from the Catholic Church on either of these issues. Certainly the Catholic Church as a whole does not seem to be taking any sort of leadership role in those areas. Yes, you have a support group. so did the protestants in the form of Exodus. But it mostly functioned to keep pastors from having to deal directly with same sex members. They could just send them to a support group and feel they had ministered to them. How is Courage any different?
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteDo you avail youself of the Sacrament of Penance so you can receive more frequently?
Fr. Greg,
ReplyDeleteI haven't been to confession in a while but I will at some point.
Please find an orthodox but compassionate priest to help you through this.
ReplyDeleteFr. Greg,
ReplyDeleteWhere do you minister?
Matt,
ReplyDeleteI am an Eastern Orthodox priest so I cant really comment on the Catholic clergy situation. In our modern world it is seldom that a priest isn't confronted with the same sex attraction issues. By and large it seems that many clergy are uncomfortable in dealing with this issue for a host of reasons: fear, lack of knowledge, not knowing how to hate the sin but embrace the sinner as brother. I have dealt with the issue many times in confession. along with a host of other sexual sins. I spent many years working with drub addicted persons in treatment and of course the issue of sex is always so prominent. As with anyone who is struggling one hopes that we encounter Christ the Lord and then draw on His Grace, especially as it expresses itself in the Sacraments, prayer, fasting, and the embrace of the fellowship of Christ.
Daniel,
ReplyDeleteIm in the greater Detroit area and am an Orthodox Priest not Roman Catholic. Just so that you know and are comfortable with that.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteWhat about all those divorced and remarried people in your congregation. They are adulterers. What about all those overweight, even grossly obese men, women, and children in your congregation? Do you publicly call them to repentance and deny them the sacraments until they repent? To not do so, is to approve of their damnable sins.
Really? You seem extremely bitter about your circumstances so bitter, in fact, that you have to deflect onto others. We need not concern ourselves with others sins as it is our sins that need to be dealt with. Pastor Peters and others in ordained ministry who are faithful to their callings have given us the Truth. It is not watered down, changed and/or tailored so it is palatable to us. What good would that be?
As to the way that Truth is communicated to us, well, being the humans that we are not everyone is going to be "pastoral" in delivering the message. And just as you know about people with same-sex attraction; ie, they are not ALL molesters, ALL perverts, ALL effeminate, ALL disgraceful, the same can be said of the Ordained Ministers of God that not ALL of them are fire and brimstone and preach with hate. But nonetheless they preach the Truth because we need to hear it. And if the Truth hurts well, it's going it's job.
So please get over the bitterness as it hurts not only you but others trying to live in accordance with God's will.
Fr. Greg,
ReplyDeleteI have no problems with Orthodox Christians or the Orthodox Church.
Glad to hear that! Never hurts to have friends!
ReplyDeleteFr. Greg,
ReplyDeleteI live with both lungs (thank you JP2) in Boston. I am across the street from Holy Cross Cathedral and St. John the Baptist Greek Orthodox Church. I go often to Orthros and listen to that beautiful morning Chant. Holy Cross has been recently renovated and now looks more like a Church than a living room. I am blessed to have both. I'm at home.
Pastor Peters,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your forum and your service to the Lord and to His people. Is there a way to share my email with one of of the men who who post without it becoming public?
Fr Gregory,
ReplyDeleteSorry, since you mentioned Courage I assumed you were RCC.
Still, the issue stands because many non-catholics also jumped on the "its those gay priests" bandwagon.
See there are 3 basic factors in the life of a kid who grows up gay in any conservative church.
1: He hears a lot of negative comments about people like himself. Whether it is "gay men in the priesthood are child molesters" or cruel jokes from pastors about lovingly shooting gay people etc.
2: He never hears anything positive. He may, on occasion, hear that God forgives homosexuality too. But what that forgiveness means is seldom discussed in a positive manner or demonstrated. Pastors and Christians who might, internally, feel little animosity toward LGBT people and might even admire those who chose celibacy remain silent when gay people are verbally attacked - as in the cases I mentioned regarding bullying or gay priests blamed for molesting kids. Last year, in response to the Revoice conference, there was a lot of pissing and moaning in the PCA about the fact that Revoice used "GBT language. As I read through the many comments, it became clear that the practical effect of protesting the terminology was that pastors and churches did not have to deal with the problems and situation Revoice was trying to address. It allowed PCA pastors to remain silent on serious issues with the excuse that "we don't support that kind of labeling."
3: Often, stands "against the LGBT agenda" are, in reality, stands against people. For instance, a decade or so ago when the Boy Scouts were talking about letting gay boys into the organization - and to be clear, at the time they were only talking about boys who were not sexually active - the consternation in conservative circle was extreme, even allowing one conservative jerk to call them "boy sodomites of america" in online blogs. This kind of reaction was clearly a stand against people, an attempt to separate gay boys, rather than a stand against a behavior. This has been the case of many "stands" against gay marriage or the "LGBT" agenda. Many times those who opposed a behavior took stands that were effectively against people rather than sin.
What this teaches a gay kid is that
1: I am an awful and horrible person in the eyes of my Christian friends and family.
2: I am so awful that there is no one to defend me
3: I am so bad that the Church officially stands against me participating in many activities and opportunities - it takes a stand against me, not just what I choose to do with my sexuality.
No, I don't think Christians are "holier than thou." But I do get tired of hating myself, especially when in Church, and finding no relief.
This is why Pastor Peter's post is correct and yet irrelevant. Until we figure out how to help those who grew up in the Church know the love of God instead of constant self-hate, it will never matter that we stand against or for behavior. It is simply irrelevant to the issue at hand. Yes, insisting on acceptance of behavior is wrong. but the Church, at this time, does not offer a positive alternative.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteChrist does offer an alternative: Love one another as I have loved you! I pray that you don't define yourself by your sexuality, since it is only a small. yes important part, of who you are. I am not able to get into all of your questions since I know that it would not be sufficient. Your experiences do help create who you are, but again they don't define you as a person. Many years ago as a freshman in a male Catholic University I had an old Jesuit confessor who had a way with helping us to deal with sexual impulse. He would give us a monthly card on which we checked whether or not we had violated chastity. The with the next confession he would review it and make some comment, always of a helpful non judgemental nature. He helped many of us to embrace the theology of weakness, to never give up on God and to find Him in our struggles. To this day I treasure the wisdom and insight of this very holy and compassionate man.
I hope that this helps you a bit.
Fr. Greg,
ReplyDeleteIt's good to know that there were/are some Jesuits who didn't go down the toilet. I take it you were once Catholic?
We need more priests like you who give us the Truth firmly yet with kindness and compassion.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteOh yes there were many holy and caring Jesuits that I had as professors and spiritual guides during the early 1960's. And there are some today such as Fr. Pacwa and the founder of Ignatius Press. It was shortly after graduation that I embarked on learning about the Orthodox Church and then was received into the Church during Great Lent, 1966. To this day I maintain friendships with the more conservative Catholic clergy in the area. Needless to say no need to dialogue with the libs since that goes nowhere fast. Dan I do believe that you are very close to the Kingdom. Trust in Christ and He will lead you into a deeper relationship with Him. it always helps to be close to His all holy Mother Mary.
Thank you Fr. Greg. Perhaps you should start a blog?
ReplyDeleteMaybe when I retire from an active pastorate. Dan and Matt, want you to read what I see as the Eastern Orthodox way to overcoming whatever passions with which we struggle. Fr. Huneycutt is an amazing priest and confessor.He has a blog called Orthodixie, He is a southern convert from the Episcopal Church.
ReplyDeleteOrthodox Christians, members of the Body of Christ, do not get to vote on morality. The will of God on all matters pertaining to our relationship with our bodies and each other has been revealed. We must struggle, daily, to practice the precepts of our Faith. We fall, we get up. Fall down, back up. Fall again, up again. If we sin, through confession and repentance, we are reconciled through Christ to His Holy Church. Never give up on Hope in the merciful Christ.
A priest once told about a man who came to see him about becoming Orthodox. The priest said, “Okay, we’ll need to discuss who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ….” The man interrupted him saying, “I’m gay.” The priest said, “Okay. But if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to discuss who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ….” “Dang it! Didn’t you hear me? I said, I’m gay!” “I heard you,” said the priest, “but if you want to become Orthodox, we’ll need to talk about who Christ is, the Church, the Sacraments ….” Crying, the man told the priest that other pastors had either told him it didn’t matter, or to get out! It took the man a couple years to become Orthodox, but another 10 years to become celibate. He claims he could never have made it without the benefit of Christ, the Church, and the Sacraments.
The Church – our Spiritual Hospital – must be open to all. We’re all sick with the disease of sin. We cannot be healed, really healed, without receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. We must never turn our backs on someone just because they’re a sinner or their sin’s not ours. God forbid! This is the mission of the Church, to save sinners! But, by the same token, it is not within our power to state that a sin is no longer a sin. God alone forgives. God alone is the judge. He has revealed Himself and His will to us in the Scriptures, within the Church. Our hope is to learn to struggle, abiding in His Grace.
Glad to see that this blog is finally becoming Orthodox!
ReplyDeleteAnon.
ReplyDeletePlease do not insult our gracious host. He is a goodly man!
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteWhat about all those divorced and remarried people in your congregation. They are adulterers. What about all those overweight, even grossly obese men, women, and children in your congregation? Do you publicly call them to repentance and deny them the sacraments until they repent? To not do so, is to approve of their damnable sins.
He presumes that divorce is not preached against or that other sins are ignored. I know as one who sits in the pews that in preaching and teaching these pastors call their people to repentance regularly, sometimes painfully so. But what this post is about is a denial of original sin. The way we are is NOT the way God intended -- or God intended for suffering, pain, death, etc. It is not about comparing how sins are treated or not treated. That is a legitimate point but not the focus of this article. The alcoholic with the gene could say the same thing -- my alcoholism is not my fault but God's since I was made with that propensity.
Fr Gregory,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if you come back to this blog after the first day - most don't. But it is interesting that your last two responses both have to do with overcoming passion or overcoming temptation. You ask if I identify by my sexuality. The answer is "yes." But not because the temptations are strong or the desires overwhelming.
This is precisely the heart of the problem. "Ministry to homosexuals" has historically meant helping them either overcome or, at least manage, their temptations. This was the point of Exodus and its support groups - and it failed miserably. Nearly every pastor I have ever talked to has focused on this narrow part of me - they offer forgiveness for my "same sex attraction" or point me to the hope that one day, in the resurrection if not before, I will be fixed.
But once you have figured a way to handle your sexuality, what's left? What else does the church offer? To be blunt, the answer is very little.
When I first realized that I was attracted to boys instead of girls at age 11, I was terrified. It was wrong and horrible to be gay, especially as a boy in the 70s. And there was no one to talk to, no one to get advice from, no one I dared approach. I had to figure it out by myself.
I heard the church say you had to repent. So I did. I repented of every twinge of sexual desire - and it did not work, it did not go away.
I heard Christians say we had to obey God - so I tried. I tried to obey him in every way, both to earn His grace to become straight and to try to make up for being gay. But, being sinful, I could no be perfect. And so every little mistake, every sin was an utter failure before God - and I repented deeply of them and hated myself for all of them.
It was obvious, by the time I was 15 that celibacy was my only option. But if you are a gay teen striving for lifelong celibacy, the dynamics are complicated to say the least. How do you make friends? There no such thing as a friendship not impacted in one way or another by sexuality. Friends who were girls came to expect something I could not give them and were hurt. Male friends presented me with temptations and desire I could not handle. The dynamics were far too complicated and so I did without friends.
I had some good friends in college but within a year or two of graduations, as college friendships go, we all drifted away and lost touch.
I made the mistake about 5 years ago of confiding in a couple of pastors. That was a huge error. Oh, yes, both talked about forgiveness. But, essentially, I was very nicely told that I should not be active in the Church beyond coming to worship. And so church became even more isolating.
The problem is that every single facet of my life has either been about sexual attraction, the avoidance of sexual attraction, making up for the sin of sexual attraction or failing to do enough to make up for the sin of sexual attraction.
So you ask me if I identify by my sexuality. Well, now that I am in my late 50s and experience very little sexual attraction, I have found that there isn't any left of "me." People say "how are you doing today" and I don't know what to answer because I don't even know who I am. There is no sense of self left. Just keep slogging on, trying to obey God, failing, and going home to be alone.
I did such a good job of repenting of being me that now there is nothing left, no real interest in anything, no real desire for anything - just a continual attempt to be nice and show a happy face to witness to the goodness of a God I believe exists but that I no longer know how to relate to.
continued...
ReplyDeleteI have met many celibate gay men of my generation who seem to be in the same boat. There is nothing fulfilling in their lives, no real joy, no hope and no desire for hope. In order to obey God, we turned ourselves off and now we don't know how to even exist anymore. We just hold on, somehow, from one day to the next.
And all the Church has to say to us is advice on overcoming desires - well we we've been there and done that, didn't bother buying the T-shirt. And now we are saying "is this all there is?" Is this emptiness all that we can expect?
Yes, we were well taught to deny ourselves. But what we were not given was the love of God. When I was a teen, I used to imagine that if I managed to get through to the end of my life, doing my best to be obedient sexually, and without killing myself, maybe God would smile when He saw me and give me a hug and welcome me to His kingdom. But over the years, it has so long since I had a real hug, I have forgotten what it was like. I can no longer even imagine it. People like me, we have forgotten what love was like and, now, can not even call up enough memory of it to desire it.
And again, this is why I say the original blog post was both correct and irrelevant. Yes, theologically the Church accepts and loves people without approving of or accepting the way they behave sexually. But, in practice, I have never actually seen that done for LGBT people. Until Christians begin discussing and showing how to do that, the theological principle is irrelevant because the real confession of faith in words and action is corrupt.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteThat was well written and you are correct in most of your observations but I’m afraid that saying that the theological element is irrelevant is incorrect as everything hinges on that element.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteI just checked your message. Perhaps you could resend your comments to the following email efkaristo@att.net. It will probably be sometime tomorrow before i'll be freed up a bit.
Fr. Gregory
Daniel G
ReplyDeleteI did not say the theological elements is irrelevant. I said the element of the original post was theologically correct but irrelevent.
It is irrelevant, not because it is theological, but because it is does not admit reality. It is correct because we should be able to accept and affirm a person without accepting or affirming their behavior. It is irrelevant because it ignores the reality that few Christians have ever, in fact, actually done that in the last several decades. It acknowledges a truth but denies the reality of sin and culpability.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteI guess what it boils down to is whether or not to be bitter about the whole thing. I am not bitter about my situation anymore. Sure I would like to know the reason I was given this particularly difficult cross to bear and to reiterate, I do not bear it well. But it profits me nothing to be bitter about it. I know in my heart of hearts that God loves me the sinner but detests my sin and does not define me by my sin but as his creation though fallen. I have come to believe and know that he wants what is best for me and that is communicated through his Church and the scriptures. Yet somehow the Church's salespeople, so to speak, are bad purveyors of God's truth. As my priest friend put it, it's not the product that is bad, it is the salesperson (priest, religious, what have you) that is the problem. What God expects of us is to not lose hope or become sullen like Cain. He wants us to love him of our own volition.
Daniel G., could you help us learn from your experiences? What, precisely, do you want to hear from "the Church's salespeople"?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeletePeople can't give what they don't have, period. If they don't have compassion we won't get that. If they don't understand where we come from, no matter how much they try, they won't. But you can't fault for not trying. What can expect no, demand from them as shepherds is the Truth. What WE do with the Truth is what is important.
If it is our lot to suffer then we must suffer in solidarity with the One who suffered unjustly for our sakes on the Cross. But we must suffer not as the Pharisees, we must wash our faces and comb our hair and suffer in secret as the Father who sees in secret will reward us.
It's tiring, quite frankly, to bitch and moan about our situation. Nobody likes a complainer. Instead of looking at the glass half empty let's count our blessings instead such as; we know the Truth, we have our health, we have jobs to go to, clothes to put on, food on our table and above all that we are really never alone because God is with us every step of the way.
Daniel, I will agree with you here. It is not the Gospel nor Christ that is bad. But "salespeople" sold us a bill of goods that is rotten. From the time I was a preteen, I was convinced that if I just bore my cross then I would be part of the Church and loved by God and by other Christians. The problem is that as the years have gone by and the "cross" of sexual temptation has become easier, the promise is still unfulfilled. If God loves us, no one could really tell by the attitude, actions and words of the Church. Am I bitter? Maybe - but its more like it doesn't matter anymore. It's more in the sense of hopelessness.
ReplyDeleteIn Lutheran terms it is what was predicted by Lutheran theology. If you deliver only law to a repentant sinner they will become a despairing sinner. And this is what the Church has done since I was a little kid - a lot of law to same sex attracted people and very little and weak Gospel.
I fought and held on to hope as long as I could but it all gradually trickled away because their was no real confession of Gospel - just one more hoop to continually jump through in order to finally be part of God's Body.
Oops, signing in under an old id on that last one.
ReplyDeleteDaniel, I would not complain if it were not for the fact that I think the Church actually does have the answer. But if we do not present the problem, the answer will never be given either. Essentially the Church needs to
1: acknowledge that in taking a stand against a behavior, Christians have nearly always gone to far and taken a stand against people - and apologize for that.
2: take more time and put more effort in to exploring and discussing what love is and means and what positive benefits the Gospel offers - frankly, pastors have gotten lazy on this and let a sentence or two of "God forgives you" stand for the whole Gospel. That has to end.
3: take leadership in defending those who are abused. The Church should have been in the forefront of calling for the inclusion of gay kids in the boy scouts and in developing anti-bullying and anti-suicidal programs for gay kids.
4: The church needs to actively discuss and encourage people to discover how to show love for a person without approving of their behavior. There has to be more than what has been offered.
But as long as pastors defend the status quo and lie to themselves that they "accept the person" but "not the sin" then nothing will happen.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteAgain you are putting the burden on the Church (whatever Church you belong to) alone. The Church with all of it's human agents presents the Truth to us in whatever form and by whomever may present it for better or for worse. What WE do with that Truth is the difference between salvation and damnation.
It's time to stop criticizing the Church and take the bull by the horns; that is, working out our salvation in fear and trembling as St. Paul put it and stop complaining. The pastors who have shown little or no compassion/love/charity will have much to answer for. Maybe those same pastors are dealing with the same issues we are. Not all the pastors are the same and thank God for that. Maybe they speak in terms of fire and brimstone because they know what the stakes are and want desperately for us to get to Heaven. And as ambassadors of God, they know that many of us need a kick in the pants and to snap out of it. In the meantime we must work (I know Lutherans hate that word but it is what it is)together and in alignment with the Truth.
So many voices speak out today about so many of our social issues; not even Christians agree to the solutions in terms of how to approach them. I do believe that ministry to the individual as part of the healing of whatever separates us from the Love of God is the most realistic way to address our concerns. It is slow and is not comprehensive but It seems that is what Christ did. He preached to the multitudes and healed individuals right where the lived and experienced their state of being outcasts. When one compassionate heart sits and listens to another who is hurting, then together they can rise and journey together with Christ as did the disciples on the way to Emmaeus. The program of the 12 steps from AA has much to offer us as we rise and begin to walk together as Brothers and Sisters.
ReplyDeleteIt may be your experience that Christians have failed to affirm the person while not affirming the behavior. I cannot say about that. But it is a false idea that because you have not seen or experienced it, it does not happen. I know of many congregations in which people are welcoming, loving, and encouraging to people with a variety of needs, issues, and lifestyles -- all while NOT giving divine sanction to those things that are against God's Law. Besides, if you are single, like I am, and straight, the message of self-control and not giving into temptation is no easier nor is it less offensive to desire than it is to you.
ReplyDeleteIndeed some good things may happen in individual relationships. But that is not the point. Those individual relationships are inaccessible to the rest of us. We can not read minds nor experience those things others experienced.
ReplyDeleteWhat we can and do experience is what the Church as a whole does and says in public forums. And there the church has not only been woefully negligent but often abusive.
I would suspect, frankly, there are many pastors who would do quite well in individual one on one ministry to a same sex attracted person. But if they do not approach the topic publicly in a correct manner, they will never have the opportunity to have that individual ministry.
The individual can in no way make up for the errors of the community. Especially when the individual is too cowardly to stand against those errors publicly.
Nor do I find the message of self-control and not giving in to temptation offensive in any way. That is not and has not been a problem from me for a long time. I am celibate. I happen to agree with that message and don't find that offensive at all.
Daniel G., you really did not answer my question:
ReplyDeleteLet me repeat/refine it.
What, exactly, are you expecting your priest/pastor to say to you?
What do you want to hear?
Matt:
ReplyDelete"But if they do not approach the topic publicly in a correct manner, they will never have the opportunity to have that individual ministry. "
And what, exactly, do you want them to say publicly on these issues? Please be as specific as possible.
Thank you.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteTHE TRUTH. If pastors etc, cannot be compassionate, I can't demand what they don't have to give. If they have given me the Truth then that is enough. I have to trust that God loves me if others can't, won't or don't. I have to trust that God has what's best for me in mind. I don't know what you expect but I sense that any answer you get will NEVER be enough.
I was bullied by my peers and have a father who to this day will not apologize for the misery he caused in our house to me, the eldest son and to my mother, brothers and sisters. I have heard from him things such as, "You were born stupid and will die stupid." "You're a fag." "if I find out that you are a queer, I'll kill you." "You're fat." "Why can't you be like the other kids who go out and play." And after my brother, who was murdered, "YOu should have died instead of your brother." So I know what it is like to feel unloved by kids my age but most of all by my father. But I always had a sense of God even before I started going to Church and I guess in my childish mind I took comfort in that even though my home life SUCKED. But I am not bitter. Those experiences made me who I am today. And I am not perfect but I have compassion for the downtrodden. I love God and I see God in the things of the world. My cross is heavy to be sure but there is hope.
It's a ramble I know but and I repeat, we have to stop looikng at the glass as half empty and count our blessings and STOP WHINING.
Sin is sin even when committed by pastors and pastors need to know the damage they have done and do. They don't get a free pass. If they can not show and elucidate the compassion of God they should be out of the ministry. Lutheran theology is extremely clear on this point. Law delivered to repentant sinners without, or with little Gospel, produces despairing sinners. I am just saying what a despairing sinner looks like and what the results of the mishandling of law and Gospel look like.
ReplyDeleteWhat should they say?
It is really fairly simple and that pastors can't figure it out is rather scary. I already outlined most of it above pretty clearly.
Let's take Pastor Peter's post from yesterday about the gay survival guides from Sweden. He used that as springboard to complain about Bolz-Weber's writings and ideas. He is not completely wrong. I think she is, after-all, very non-Christian in her approach to shame and sex. But Pastor Peter's post is neither brave nor insightful. He is simply complaining to an audience and readership that largely agrees with him. I found myself wondering why he wrote it. There is nothing new, nothing challenging there. What was the purpose, other than to complain about "those people out there."
Actually the guide he was complaining about would be a good idea written from the correct point of view.
Back in the 70s there were no role models at all for gay kids - closest I had was Billy Crystal playing a gay man on Soap and I definitely did not want to be like that. Today LGBT kids in the Church are surrounded by "role models." But nearly all of those role models are out and gay affirming. What about giving them some role models of queer people who understood a biblical view of sex and sexuality? Paul, for instance, has always been a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, because he was not married, he would seem to be a candidate as possibly gay individual. But because he also firmly held a strong sexual ethic, he is not exactly the kind of person the gay affirming theologian wants to hold up as an example. But he is perfect for a gay kid who has a conservative view of marriage. Was he gay? I don't know. But he certainly did not live a conventional life as far as marriage goes – choosing singleness and abstinence outside of marriage. As many LGBT kids do today, he certainly tried to be perfect and to earn God's love – and failed to do so. Just as many gay kids today are fooled into thinking if they are just strong enough, pray hard enough and try with all their might they will be able to be straight and finally be loved by God – and then fail to do so. He learned and proclaimed the love of God – and had to endure rather a lot of opposition to do so, at least at the beginning, because he was not trusted by the Church. Again, something a lot of gay people are familiar with and could relate to. Yet God chose to use him far more than He used any of the original 12.
In fact, Paul would also be a good role model for pastors speaking the Gospel when addressing things like homosexuality. One of my major beefs with “the Gospel” as it is often applied to homosexuality is that pastors say a brief “God forgives you” and then leave it there, without any real context or illumination and expect that “Gospel” to be enough – they expect that little bit of Gospel, poor thing, to do all the heavy lifting of relieving the burden of law they have lavished upon despairing sinners. And then act insulted when that tiny little statement does not produce an amazing harvest of hope and joy.
Paul does not do that. He gives the forgiveness of Christ a context. You are justified...therefore you are the Body of Christ....therefore you are the temple of God...therefore you are beloved...therefore you are beloved brothers.
ReplyDeleteWhat about the gentile women whose daughter had a demon or the centurion whose servant was sick? No, as far as we know they were not gay. But it is also clear that, like many LGBT Christian kids, they felt singularly unworthy of the love of God. Both said as much quite clearly. Yet it was these two -neither of which had anything remotely like “an identity in Christ” whom Christ complimented for their great faith.
The temptation of Christ. Pastor Peters referred to it in his post yesterday. But he kind of blew it when he used the Hebrews passage. The Hebrews passage finds an identification with Christ who “was tempted as we are.” But I bet if a gay kid said, “Oh, you mean maybe Christ might have been attracted to gust too?” Pastor Peters would squeal like a stuck pig. That would undo any good intended by the use of that passage and actually separate the kid further from identifying with Christ rather than bring him closer. But there is a different and better way to use that passage. We do not know specifically what various temptations Christ faced. But in every single one of temptations that are described for us, Christ was given the opportunity to turn from the cross and serve himself at the cost of losing us. He chose the cross. It is not that Christ was tempted just like we are in every respect that is the chief comfort (we forget that the context of the Hebrews passage was to an audience tempted to reject Christ, a temptation somewhat parallels to His and it should probably not be used outside that context). No, the chief message of the temptations of Christ is that, given the choice between saving himself from the cross and saving us, He chose to save us.
Yes it is important for gay kids to have role models – by seeing others who may have been in similar circumstances they can say “maybe Christians act like jerks but just as THAT person was loved by God and part of His Body, so am I.” And here, again, the churches that uphold the biblical view of sexuality should have been on the forefront of providing those role models, not trailing behind and whining to each other about those naughty people out there.
This is probably the biggest sin of the Church today and one that perhaps the faithful LGBT Christians can call the church to change. Christians, especially Christian pastors, spend too much time on blogs and in discussions acting like whipped puppies, licking their wound and whining to one another, “poor us, those nasty LGBT people out there object to our stand on marriage – Oh my, we are soooo persecuted and look at all the naughty things they are doing and saying whatever will we do?” Seriously, it is getting to the point I think pastors are bigger sissies than the most effeminate drag queen I ever met. Come on pastors, get out there and use the resources of theology and scripture we have – do some work – actually apply them to homosexuality and transgenderism and everything else beyond just caring whether LGBT people have sex or not.
Yes, I was whining. But, frankly, I am always hoping that some pastor will actually respond with something solid. I keep hoping pastors will grow a pair and actually address the problems without me having to take them by the hand and lead them through. - this is basic practical ministry. It's law and gospel 101. A kindergarten theologian could do it – and probably does do it better than most pastors I have seen lately. Come one pastors figure out how to actually illuminate the Gospel instead of pissing and moaning about how hard it is.
Wow! So much insight is the several past comments. So often today when clergy address the gay issue they either run from it, or they give into the culture. I suppose in times of great change it is a given that many mistakes in turns and directions will be made. Frankly this is the first discussion that I have encountered in which the writers, with a same sex orientation, are trying to make sense of moral living rather than try to coax the Church to changes the rules. I am thankful and hopeful that there are men and women out there who want authentic Christian living without political correctness, and still have to live with who they are and can even embrace it as a way that God accompanies them on the road to salvation. Thank you for the sharing of that dimension of who you are at the core of your being. God bless you.
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