Wednesday, August 22, 2018
Goofy vestments. . .
The symbolism on vestments should be unmistakably Christian, the colors should follow the ordinary colors of the church calendar, and should point the people to the fact that the wearer stands in persona Christi. . . so a fail on all count for the vestments Pope Francis will wear when he visits Ireland. Worse than failure, they are just plain goofy.
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Lutherans don't believe the pastor stands in persona Christi. He stands as the publicly called minister of the keys given to each member of the church. Lutherans believe the promises of God in the Bible are 100% trustworthy. If Jesus promises he will be where two are gathered in his name, he will be there. The pastor's invocation does not effect this presence. Christ is present with the bread and wine in communion, yet our confessions explicitly say it is not the words of the pastor that makes this so. It is the promise of Christ that makes it so.
Lutherans don"t believe the pastor stands in persona Christi??? What about in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins???
Please re-read the Confessions, and every Lutheran Church father on this. Lutherans ABSOLUTELY believe the Pastor stands, persona Christi, in the stead of Christ. In fact, the founders of the LCMS left Saxony over this very issue which is part of the Prussian Union. They left partly because the Words of Institution would change from FIRST person singular (like we do it now) to THIRD person (Jesus says, this is...). Inserting those 2 words makes a huge difference. Some died, and many willing to die over this 2 word change. The Pastor speaks Absolution, Baptism, Supper first person because Jesus is doing it!
I think the first Anon. is confusing "Indelible character" of Rome with "persona Christi" of the Church catholic.
"Persona Christi" is found nowhere in the confessions.
This is: “It is not the voice or word of the man who speaks it, but it is the Word of God, who forgives sin, for it is spoken in God’s stead and by God’s command”(AC XXV.3)
What has been seen...can not be unseen.
My eyes.
"Lutherans don't believe the pastor stands in persona Christi."
Wait...what?
"They do not represent their own persons but the person of Christ, because of the church's call, as Christ testifies (Luke 10:16), "He who hears you hears me." When they offer the Word of Christ or the sacraments, they do so in Christ's place and stead."
Apology of the Augsburg Confession, Article VII
Interesting tangent on persona Christi, but back to the vestments. I suspect that they are more than ugly but nefarious insinuations. They remind me of rainbow sherbet, and we know what rainbow has come to signal in popular culture- and what is going on in the RCC.
Anonymous on August 22, 2018 at 8:49 AM: "In fact, the founders of the LCMS left Saxony over this very issue which is part of the Prussian Union."
One wonders why this Missouri Saxon fairy tale/FakeNews keeps getting foisted off as revisionist history in the Missoouri Synod (this time by someone in the large Anonymous family). The claim is simply not true.
That it is untrue has been well established in August Suelflow’s Servant of the Word (Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, 2000, p. 54), Moving Frontiers: Reading in the History of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (Carl S. Meyer, editor, CPH, St. Louis, 1964, pp. 84-85), Walter O. Forster’s Zion on the Mississippi (CPH, 1953, pp. 77, 105-112, 513, 515), Carl S. Mundinger’s Government in the Missouri Synod (CPH, 1947, pp. 63-67), Carl Eduard Vehse’s Die Stephan'sche Auswanderung nach Amerika (Dresden, 1840, p. 54), C.F.W. Walther’s May 4, 1840, letter to his brother, O.H. Walther (translated by Werner Karl Wadewitz, May 11, 1963, Concordia Historical Institute, St. Louis), and by Ernst Gerhard Wilhelm Keyl in his "Offene Bekenntnisse des vormaligen Pfarrers Keyl in Niederfrohna über seine Gemeinschaft mit Stephan und die darin begangen Versündigungen" (Open confession of former pastor Keyl in Niederfrohna about his association with Stephen and the sins committed therein), published in Zeitschrift für die gesammte lutherische Theologie und Kirche (edited by A.G. Rudelbach and H.E.F. Guerike, Leipzig, 1842, pp. 94-114), English version: "Public Confession of a Stephanite“ (trans. Rev. Joel R. Baseley, pp. 13-14).
The Stephanites left Saxony (where the Prussian Union was not being enforced) for one reason - Martin Stephan.
The Prussian Union was being strictly enforced in Prussia so that Johann Grabau and his group left Prussia for America where Grabau formed the Buffalo Synod in New York.
On each of the displayed vestments to be worn by the Antichrist, an August 15, 2018, Irish Examiner article, "Celtic symbolism on papal vestment to be worn by Pope Francis at Phoenix Park mass revealed, claims, "The papal vestment has a triple Celtic spiral that is associated with Irish ancient manuscripts while some 70 bishops." The triple Celtic spiral is called a triskelion or triskele, a symbol of Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism. Also similar in appearance is a BDSM triskele emblem.
Another close resemblence appears to be the Korean tricolored Taegeuk, which is also similar to the Buddhist Gankyil symbol.
The ignorance of fundamental Lutheran theology is remarkable.
A previous comment asserts: "Christ is present with the bread and wine in communion, yet our confessions explicitly say it is not the words of the pastor that makes this so. It is the promise of Christ that makes it so."
Our Confessions explicitly state it is not the PASTOR's words or the simple act of reciting the words which causes the bread and wine to be the body and blood of Christ but they DO say that the PASTOR SPEAKS THE WORD OF CHRIST.
The rabid, foaming at the mouth anti-clericalism of some people around here is really something to behold.
Easy on the caps lock. No one here is anti-clerical. "All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:43
Easy on the ignorance of the Lutheran Confessions, dude.
Sorry, snarky, the pastor does not "stand" in persona Christi, no matter what you interpret AAC to mean.
Different Anon here.
I'm sorry but the quoted portion of AAC is utterly clear and admits no other interpretation than what it says. It is true that the exact words "stand in Persona Christi" are not used, but "represent ... the person of Christ" and "in Christ's place and stead" couldn't be any clearer.
Anyone attempting to suggest or assert that a called and ordained servant of the Word DOES NOT stand in the place of Christ Jesus Himself, which is what "in the STEAD of" and "by the command" of our Our Lord of Jesus Christ simply reveals himself to be a dolt, and a fool and an idiot.
how would lutheran ministers absolve sins? They are separated from the Church and it's kind of like they went off and did their own thing after the problems in the 16th century. The Lutherans ordain each other because they don't have real bishops. There were great saints who fought to reform the Church from within, not like insane, formal heretic priest Luther who called the Pope the anti-Christ (even after the Pope sent Cardinal Cajetan to reason with the guy). I don't think the Pope wanted to mix it up but then Luther called him the anti-Christ.
Anyways, because the ministers ordain each other and pretend to confect Eucharist, aren't these people who claim they can absolve sins doing more harm than good? Because the people who buy into the Lutheran community think they have their sins forgiven. So I don't understand.
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