Thursday, August 29, 2013

Can you help?

The Siberian Lutheran Mission Society which supports the partner church of the LCMS, the Siberian Lutheran Church, is in dire need.  Can you help?

Click here for the Siberian Lutheran Mission Society.

Click here for the Prof. Alan Ludwig - Siberian Lutheran Missionary.

Click here for info on Prof. Alan Ludwig.


Unknown said...

Stay out of Holy Russia. You accuse the Orthodox of sheep stealing and yet you do the same in Russia? Damn your hypocrisy.

David Gray said...

If only Russia were holy. Who's accused the Orthodox of "sheep stealing"? "Sheep stealing" is usually a term used by people who don't take the truth as seriously as they ought.

Unknown said...


It's a term. Russians may not be holy, but that doesn't mean Russia is not consecrated to God (it is, just as Germany is, even during WWII).

Who accuses Orthodox of sheep stealing? Are you in denial? Lutherans repeatedly make that charge, especially McCain of Concordia PUblishing House.

Stay out of Russia. If you really want to spread the gospel, spread it in a place which has NEVER heard it. Places like Yemen or UAE or even Qatar. But I guess it's easier to do it in places where you don't run the risk of public execution.--Chris

David Gray said...

A nation governed by atheists for decades and whose primary church is riddled with Chekists for officers is not necessarily endanger of having received too much gospel.

If McCain talks about "sheep stealing" he should cease. It is one of the most foolish terms known to man.

Dr.D said...

The appeared decidedly orthodox and catholic. I noticed a Deacon's stole (aren't Deacons frowned upon in the LCMS?), a bishop, the chasuble worn by the bishop, etc. All sorts of catholic trappings!

Most interesting to me was the clergy wearing clerics even outside of the service. I have been banned from one LCMS parish for wearing clerics when I visited them. That pastor and his associate both came to visit me about this matter, and both came in business suits and ties. I received them at my home, wearing clerics. It was rather humorous, I thought. They told me in no uncertain terms that no one but the pastor is allowed to wear clerics in their parish church, and that he never wears them outside of the service. I scandalized them! I was told that I could return to visit, but not wearing clerics.

Fr. D+
Anglican Priest

Unknown said...


A civilization is more than just who runs it at any time. A church is more than the fallen human beings who run it. I guess the Lutheran churches in Germany are then the spawn of Satan since so many of them collaborated with the Nazis. Or does that not count?

David Gray said...

How many Lutheran bishops were Gestapo agents?

Besides the Eastern Orthodox have a relatively heterodox understanding of the gospel and indeed don't accept the doctrine of original sin.

Again, the whole concept of sheep stealing is mindless unless you believe that such differences are without meaning. If they are without meaning let the Eastern Orthodox embrace the Book of Concord. It would be an improvement.

Anonymous said...

The vast majority of these served by the Siberian Lutheran Church are or were ethnic Germans or Lutherans from the European side of Russia who were deported to Siberia by Stalin when nearly every Lutheran Pastor was murdered by Stalin. They are the ultimate in dispossessed and forgotten. By now they are pretty thoroughly Russian or Siberian but there were not originally.

Pastor Peters said...

When did I "accuse the Orthodox of sheep stealing"? Tell me, please?

Unknown said...


You tell me how many Lutherans worked with the Nazis.

The Orthodox have already responded to the Augsburg confession. Read it. We don't need it. Our position is that of the church. Yours is the position of one (maybe two) men.

You really don't understand much of anything about Orthodox theology?

Fr. Peters,

Trying to solicit funds to spread the Lutheran heresy in Orthodox Russia is at least being complicit in sheep stealing. But, as I said earlier, it is really McCain who uses that phrase; I've never seen you actually use it, but I've not taken the time to track it down in any of your posts.

David Gray said...

Actually the entire Latin church embraces the orthodox doctrine of original sin. It is only the eastern rump that does not.

Unknown said...

First, a little about Lutherans in Russia. The oldest Lutheran church in Russia is located in St. Petersburg and dates to 1708. In 1914 there were over 2 million Lutherans living in Russia. By the outbreak of WWII, the Lutheran population in the Soviet Union had declined, in part because the Baltic countries became independent. Most of the Lutherans living in the Ukraine and the Black Sea area were forcibly expelled to Siberia and Kazakhstan after the start of WWII, which accounts for the many Lutherans there now. Therefore the existence of a Lutheran Church in Siberia is not a result of proselytizing but of people whose ancestors had been Lutherans for generations returning to their faith.

A case can be made for the proposition that the Soviet regime was not, as the Russian Orthodox Church claims, punishment of the people for not obeying the Czar (the anointed of God) and the church, but God’s way of destroying a church that had betrayed the proclamation of the Gospel in favor of power and wealth. Rev. 13:2, “The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.”

The Russian Orthodox Church today does not proclaim or live the Gospel any more than its predecessor. Before Kyril became Patriarch, he was nicknamed “Tabak Kyril”, because of his ability to obtain huge duty concessions for cigarettes and alcohol, with which he earned vast amounts of money for himself and for the church. If a member of the Russian Orthodox Church becomes a Lutheran, it is not a matter of proselytizing, but of turning to the life-giving Gospel from a place where it cannot be found.

The tragedy of Lutherans in Russia is a vast and complicated story. I urge anyone who can to support the efforts of our Lutheran brothers and sisters there. I know that the LCMS has contributed significantly to the growth of this Church.

Peace and Joy!
George A. Marquart

Unknown said...

"If a member of the Russian Orthodox Church becomes a Lutheran, it is not a matter of proselytizing, but of turning to the life-giving Gospel from a place where it cannot be found."

We who have embraced the Orthodox faith would say much the same thing, but then the Church would be accused by the likes of you of "sheep-stealing."

The ORthodox Church has the fulness of the Gospel. We don't preach "your Gospel" which is the manifestation of the thought process of one man, maybe two men.

Take your peace and joy and stuff it, George since you obviously don't mean it.

STAY OUT OF RUSSIA. I don't buy your b.s. explanation that this is to help the native Lutherans there.

David Gray said...


The Chekist spirit and Caesaro-Papism of a portion of the Russian Orthodox is on display.

One might as well say keep the Eastern Orthodox out of the United States.

Chris Jones said...


Besides the Eastern Orthodox have a relatively heterodox understanding of the gospel and indeed don't accept the doctrine of original sin.

What does it mean to be "relatively heterodox"? Is that like being a little bit pregnant?

In any case you are mistaken as to the EO position on original sin:

We believe the first man created by God to have fallen in Paradise, when, disregarding the Divine commandment, he yielded to the deceitful counsel of the serpent. And as a result hereditary sin flowed to his posterity; so that everyone who is born after the flesh bears this burden, and experiences the fruits of it in this present world. (Confession of Dositheus, 1672).

I would say that that is an adequate expression of the doctrine of original sin, though not perhaps as robust as some Calvinist statements of "total depravity." That is not a problem in my book.

Some intemperate Orthodox polemicists sometimes make the claim that the EO don't believe in original sin, and that the Western belief in it is heterodox. They are mistaking differences in emphasis and differences in how the doctrine is articulated for disagreement on the doctrine itself. Take care not to make the same mistake from the other side.

David Gray said...


Thanks! I'm pretty certain that it was EO folks who told me that they didn't believe in original sin so that is a welcome clarification. It does strike me as a bit problematic that people can reach a point where they don't believe their church believes in original sin.

David Gray said...

I would add that sometimes folks get confused as to what Calvin's "total depravity" meant as well. It didn't mean things were as bad as they can be but rather that no aspect of man was immune from the effects of the fall.

Janis Williams said...

Seems like an awful lot of logical fallacy flying around here.

So, if all Lutherans are heretics and therefore condemned to hell....

We currently have an Orthodox church meeting in our chapel. I haven't noticed any "sheep stealing" on either side.

Lutherans do not scream "heretic" at the Orthodox, as far as I know. Despite big doctrinal differences, I have no doubt there are redeemed people and unredeemed in BOTH Lutheran and Orthodox churches.

If I am misreading the anger and irritation in the writing here, I apologize.

Anonymous said...

So by the same token, if there is no Orthodox congregation somewhere, the Orthodox should stay out and let their people be served by the church which is there???

The comment "STAY OUT OF RUSSIA. I don't buy your b.s. explanation that this is to help the native Lutherans there." is ridiculous. Besides, in Siberia few churches are strong. It is a large land with few cities and many people spread way out.

I think the whole comment line has gotten a little weird.

Unknown said...

Unknown, I normally do not respond to rude and uncharitable comments, but this time I will make an exception.
Although I was baptized a Lutheran over 75 years ago, I grew up in a a large Russian Orthodox family. I have spoken, read and write Russians since childhood. I lived and worked in the Soviet Union and Russias for over ten years. The fate nof the Lutheran and Russian Orthodox Churches in Russia has been a focus of my interest for most of my life.
Yes, we all have the Gospel, but we do not all proclaim it. What is more, we do not all proclaim it purely. The lithmus test is whether people are or are not encouraged to be certain of their salvation. In the Russian Orthodox Church this certainty is believed to be a sin.
So, Unknown, the peace I wish you is from Romans 5:1, Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God. The joy is from John 16:22, ...but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. If you do not have these, you have no part in His Kingdom.
Peace and Joy!
George A. Marquart
Composed on my IPad, as my computer is broken.

Anonymous said...

Interesting trivia: The Russian Orthodox church collaborated with the Communists against the common people for decades. Thanks to growing up in an atheist state, most Russians do not belong to any church.

I have an idea. Close the LCMS Fort Wayne seminary and relocate it to Novosibirsk. The LCMS seminaries in the USA produce way too many graduates without a call in any case......