Thursday, October 17, 2019

Gotta love. . . to hate it. . .

Reported in some blogs was an exchange between Phillie Cardinal Chaput and Jesuit Padre James Martin.  Apparently the good Cardinal took exception to the writings and a certain presentation of Fr. Martin who has a history of attempting to make repairs in the relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and the GLBTQ+ community.  The Jesuit responded by suggesting that he and everyone else knows what the doctrine of the RCC is concerning homosexuality (or other forms beside the divinely appointed order of male and female love and its shape in marriage), but they are tired of hearing about it and it is not helpful to drawing them back into the life of the church.  Ahhhh, yes.

But of course the Jesuit has it exactly right.  We have a conscience placed in us by God.  We know right from wrong.  It is no secret that orthodox Christianity does not embrace the sexuality of choice but affirms the Godly order of creation, male and female in a lifelong union of fidelity and fruitful love.  We all know this but none of us want to hear about it and most of us don't want to hear it at all.  So, of course, that is exactly why we should not repeat the Law to those who break it.  We do not want to say it and they do not want to hear it.  Perfect symmetry, right?

Except that this is exactly why God placed the Church on earth -- to say to us what we do not want to hear!  The truth in the face of our lies or ignorance or our deliberate avoiding of the Biblical Word is precisely why we are here and why we have a voice and why the Lord has given us His Word to speak.  For how else will sinners of any kind be called to repentance and come to know the extravagant mercy of God who graciously provided a scapegoat to wear all our sins and a righteous Savior to clothe us with His holiness?  Why, if the Church were silent before all our sins we would be like, well, liberal Christianity?!  A faith that is so weak it can only affirm and echo what people have already decided they want to hear or do not want to hear -- and that is no church at all.  In fact, it is the precursor to a hell in which such lies are accompanied with the very suffering that God moved heaven and earth so that we might never know.

So thanks be to God that there are priests, pastors, and preachers who will speak the whole counsel of God's Word and address us with precisely that which we do not want to hear.  For only then can we rejoice to hear the good news that is almost beyond all telling -- it is so wonderful.  Christianity does not need more Fr. Martin's (at least the Jesuit kind) but the faith could well stand some blunt spoken preachers who speak the Law in all its stinging truth and the Gospel in all its sweet mercy. 


Anonymous said...

Is Rome the "Church"?

Daniel G. said...

Anonymous, yes.

Arbp. Chaput said, "Father Martin has, in the past, suggested that people are born 'gay.' In his own words, '[i]t is a fact that people are born this way … [a] psychological, psychiatric, and biological truth.'"

"It’s true that many persons with same-sex attraction have experienced it for as long as they can remember," said the archbishop, "but no firm scientific consensus exists on the cause. Any implication that a person’s behavior is predetermined, and that intellect and free will have little role in the formation and control of his or her sexual appetites, is both false and destructive, especially to young people."

The archbishop continued, "Father Martin suggests that Catholic teaching on same-sex attraction as 'objectively disordered' (for example, in CCC 2358) is cruel and should be modified. ... But here Father Martin misrepresents Catholic belief."

As the Church teaches, he said, "saying a person has a particular inclination that is disordered is not to say that the person as a whole is disordered. Nor does it mean that one has been rejected by God or the Church.... Rather, the disorder is in that particular inclination, which is not ordered toward the fulfillment of the natural ends of human sexuality."

Daniel G. said...

Also anonymous, there is nothing that the bishop or Rome says about this issue that most good Lutherans would take exception with. That there are some who preach one thing yet practice another is endemic to all denominations thanks to frail human nature aka original sin and its effects.

Anonymous said...

Where does Pastor Peters say Rome is THE Church? He progresses from one example in Rome to a general statement about the Church as a whole and all of Christianity. Do we read what is written or what we want to hear or fear hearing?

Carl Vehse said...

According to a Sept. 30th Reuters news report, Pope Francis gave a high-profile private audience to Father James Martin during the morning, when the pope’s meetings are part of his published schedule, instead of privately in the afternoon. By doing so the pope appeared to be defending Martin pointedly from the attacks.

In the last two years, a number of Catholic seminaries and universities have canceled lectures and appearances by Martin, often after pressure from conservative groups.

Martin, a Jesuit like the pope, is the author of the 2017 book “Building a Bridge: How the Catholic Church and the LGBT Community Can Enter into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion, and Sensitivity”.

In a Tweet after meeting the pope, Martin said he “shared with him the joys and hopes, and the griefs and anxieties, of LGBT Catholics and LGBT people worldwide. I was so grateful to meet with this wonderful pastor”.

Rorate Caeli, one of the conservative blogs that has often criticized Martin, Tweeted after the audience was made public: "It’s the feast of St. Gay Rome." In another Tweet, Rorate Caeli said: "If that’s not an endorsement, nothing is."

Daniel G. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Daniel G. said...

Anonymous, it’s you who wants to hear only what you want. No matter how you spin it, your existence as a sect is totally dependent on the true Church which is the Roman Church. It’s amazing that to tjis day you take leads from us then turn around and put us down. If the Roman Church did not exist then you would have no reason to exist.

Carl Vehse said...

The Roman Church is, at best, a heterodox sect, and NOT the true (visible) Church, The title of the true visible church rightly belongs to the Evangelical Lutheran Church, as C.F.W. Walther stated: THESIS XI: The Evangelical Lutheran Church is not the one holy Christian Church outside of which there is no salvation, though it has never separated from the same but acknowledges it alone.

THESIS XXV: The Evangelical Lutheran Church has thus all the essential marks of the true visible Church of God on earth as they are found in no other known communion, and therefore it needs no reformation in doctrine.

The existence of the invisible Church does not depend upon the existence of the Roman Church. As C.F.W. Walther stated: THESIS IX: Though according to the divine promises it is not possible for the one holy Christian Church ever to perish, it is yet possible, and at times it has really happened, that there did not exist a true VISIBLE Church in the absolute sense, in which through an uncorrupted public ministry the preaching of the pure Word of God and the administration of the unadulterated Sacraments held sway.

Daniel G. said...


LOL as per usual with all of your quoting of Book of Concord, Smalcald Articles, misquoting the Scriptures, etc.

Your existence as a sect is because of the Catholic Church not in spite of it. You cannot exist without it because you will have nothing to complain about, rally against, and mock.

If Lutheranism is THE way, then the proof should be in the pudding; that is, people would see your "truth" and come into your fold in droves. That did not and does not happen. What happened was, and I repeat, a fracturing of the the Church not a restoration. That fracturing is evidenced, I repeat, by the many thousands of competing sects or denominations (not churches) that all claim to have the truth yet cannot agree on anything. If someone doesn't like what he/she hears in one church, goes to another or starts his/her own.

Well I guess Luther and his minions didn't anticipate the consequences of their arrogant insolence and actions.

Anonymous said...

I've been following Fr James Martin on Twitter for awhile. In the midst of tweets related to politics, his comments are calm and soothing. -- Mabel

Carl Vehse said...


The papish poop you spout is not going to change the opinions of any Lutherans on this Lutheran blog. The existence and continuation of the Roman Church is not required for the continued existence of the holy Christian Church until the return of Christ.

However, were the organization of the Roman Church to dissolve or disintegrate and disappear, along with the pope and the Vatican, at some time later Lutherans might then have to gather to determine whether a new Antichrist has been identified and should be identified in the Lutheran Confessions. How this would be conducted and coordinated would be interesting to discuss, given that many, who call themselves "Lutheran," do not unconditionally subscribe to all of the Symbols, especially those that refer to the pope as the Antichrist and his heresies.

Daniel G. said...

Mr. Strickert a.k.a. Carl, the Roman Church Instituted by Jesus Christ who said that the gates of hell will not prevail against will never go away. Lutherans would be hard-pressed to determine who the antichrist is because without any guidance from a magisterium they are left to their own devices to determine that. And given the history since the protestant revolt, Martin Luther is the arch type of disunity and disintegration rather than unity in Reformation.

Daniel G. said...

Btw Mr. Strickert, feel free to go on any of the Catholic blogs both liberal and traditional. Your comments will be both welcome and despised by some but for the most part will be met with intelligent responses to your comments. After all if you, as a Lutheran, have the complete truth then why would you not venture into “enemy” territory to tell your story? Why don’t you post on Rorate Coeli, OnePeterFive, Father Z’s blog or

Carl Vehse said...

Daniel: "...the Roman Church Instituted by Jesus Christ who said that the gates of hell will not prevail against will never go away."

That's just papish poop, deserving no more than a loud "Gardyloo!" as it's tossed down into the streets.

But a more informative and detailed response comes from J.T. Mueller (Christian Dogmatics (CPH, 1934, p. 548):

"To the objection of the Romanists, who aver that the Church is "a gathering of men so visible and palpable as is that of the Roman people or the kingdom of Gaul or the republic of Venice" (Bellarmine), but that an invisible Church of true believers is a mere "Platonic idea." or a "figment of the mind," we reply that this communion of saints is so real that God knows and lovingly acknowledges all its members as His, 2 Tim. 2, 19; John 10, 27. 28, preserves this Church against the gates of hell, Matt. 16, 18, makes it the chief concern of His divine providence, Rom. 8, 28; Matt. 24, 22-24, and will finally receive it into eternal glory, Luke 12, 32.

"On the other hand, the Church of Rome is not Christ's Church at all, but a human organization, founded upon commandments of men, Matt. 15, 9, and controlled by a deceiver, whom Scripture calls the Antichrist and the son of perdition, 2 Thess. 2, 3. 4, so that it is indeed outside the true Church (extra ecclesiam) both in this world, Gal. 5, 4; 3, 10, and in that to come, Gal. 4, 30."

Daniel G. said...


Roman Church, founded by Jesus Christ on the Peter and the Apostles, born on Pentecost (in the Bible).

Lutheran Church, founded by Matin Luther, 1517.

Enough said.

Carl Vehse said...

Enough of your lies said, Daniel.

Jason said...


Eastern Orthodoxy will dispute your claim that Roman Catholicism is the ONE TRUE Church on Earth.

Just saying....

Matt said...

So why would anyone want to come back to either church? The one thing I hear again and again from people like myself who are gay and believe that sex is reserved for marriage between a man and a woman and who have, therefore, chosen to remain single and celibate is that we feel God hates us. That is the only thing we hear from our pastors and our priests while they are so busy giving law to the world that they basically pretend we don't exist. No, the Church does not give the whole counsel of God. It gives law with little Gospel to despairing sinners, often teens. What little Gospel is given is seldom followed up on in action. The best we ever get is a scolding that we should "put your identity in Christ" without actually being given the means to accomplish that daunting task - as task we are left to accomplish alone. So knock off the crap about giving the whole counsel of God. Neither the roman sect nor the LCMS does so.

David Gray said...


The means are the Word and the Sacraments. You went to an LCMS church that didn't provide the means? That is sad.

Cliff said...

Daniel my dear friend, just thought I might offer a rebuttal to your claim that the RCC is the one true church founded 1,500 years before Luther.

Yes, that may have been the case at one time, but the journey is very much similar to the Israelites who were God's chosen people. So anyone familiar with biblical history knows they wandered off the path and disobeyed God, so God sent prophets to warn them to return to the Lord. We all know what happened when they disobeyed the Lord and they even killed His messengers so God sent other countries to persecute the chosen race.

Now Roman Catholicism has followed a similar path, as time passed Catholics wandered farther from The dictates of scripture and traditions. The early church fathers were faithful to biblical teachings and more resembled Protestants than modern day Catholics.
God sent messengers or prophets to warn the RCC to return to its first love. So when Luther came along you had the same reaction as the Israelites and rejected Gods warnings and we all know the rest of the story as today many Catholics have this vitriol for anything Protestant. The warning obviously was NOT heeded.

So Daniel, when God sends His message of renewal we'd best heed that warning and not reject his offer of forgiveness.

The mantra that came out of the reformation rings true today, "that the Catholic Church is steeped in error and beyond correction". No matter how your spin doctors try to reconcile the mess in your church you cannot escape the the hand of God.

No animus intended, just an attempt to come to the truth. God Bless!

Daniel G. said...

Cliff et al,

Sorry but no. The Church was never bible alone and faith alone. Those are Lutheran constructs. While Luther had a legitimate gripe with the then corrupt hierarchy (any informed Catholic would agree that there were corrupt popes and currently is crazy pope) his error was to completely turn away from 1,500 years of what the Church practiced and begin a new, unauthorized “church” which would have been unrecognizable to the Apostles and Early Church Fathers. And what followed from his many heresies were many more heresies and lo and behold, those other heresies after Luther didn’t agree with Luther heresies. So much for “private” interpretation of scripture or should I say, interpretation from founders of new sects, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al. Because those founders set themselves up as the authoritative interpreters of Revelation and the Scriptures while those who disagreed with them, that is, anyone who read the Bible and came to his/her own conclusions (and those were myriad) were labelled heretics, etc. LOL, really?

In any event, you as well as I believe that:

Jesus is God
He is the second Person of the Divine Trinity
That God is Three Persons yet one God
That Jesus was both Human and Divine (Hypostatic Union)
That Jesus came to redeem us from our sins
That he died on the Cross
That he rose on the third Day
That he ascended into heaven
That 50 days after the Ascension, Pentecost, the Church was born
That the Church was further fertilized by the blood of the martyrs
That only through the door, Christ, are we admitted into heaven

While we don’t share the same opinions/belief of the particulars of the Church and what She is and who She is, we at least are orthodox in the belief in who Jesus Christ is.

Cliff said...


Thanks for your reply and your sentiments on the churches. I am encouraged by two of your points, 1) there was/is bad popes within the Catholic Church. 2) that some outside the Catholic Church can be saved, (there is salvation outside the RCC). That is more than most Catholics can admit, especially the TLM group,

One of your own, Bishop Fulton Scheen stated that there are four foundational/basic truths. The rest are secondary. We had a seminary president who made a similar comment.

So thanks for your declaration of faith. If we believe Romans 10:9, 13. we are truly Christians.

But as for me I will never swim the Tiber and that is "where I stand".

Have a great weekend, & God's Peace!

Daniel G. said...


You said, "I am encouraged by two of your points, 1) there was/is bad popes within the Catholic Church. 2) that some outside the Catholic Church can be saved, (there is salvation outside the RCC)."

I didn't say that at all. Yes, there are people who through no fault of their own that are not members of the Catholic Church and who have been taught vehement lies and hate the Church based on the lies that they have been taught. That being said, if they strive to live a good life in accordance with the natural law and strive to do what is right in the eyes of God, then yes there is the "possibilty" of Salvation. God is not bound by his laws. The laws are for us, not Him. But if, through much reading and research you come to the conlusiion that the Catholic Church (Latin and Eatern Rites) is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, then you are bound in conscience to join her. If you do not, you risk your salvation. That has been the perennial teaching of the Church.

Bishop Sheen also stated, "There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

Cardinal Newman himself said that "to go back in history is to cease to be protestant.

Whether or not you "swim the Tiber" is your issue. I wish you would but you must do it on your own accord. I would just be careful not to constantly denigrate Christ's Bride, Ie, The Catholic Church.

God Bless!!!!